 | Date Posted: 2/27/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
Number of Replies: 30
Last Post: 3/15/2009 |
| | Originality and a winner! | I had better not see that deck somewhere online!
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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 | Date Posted: 2/27/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| It's a 5 Color Control deck that I made myself. No netdecking here! |
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| You WILL receive a prize from me as promised!
"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." Barack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 2/28/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| Sweet!!!! |
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 | Date Posted: 2/28/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I guess I owe you another pack Pdude, I forgot all about that.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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 | Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I'm sorry, but I have to RABBLE!!!!!!
5 Color Control is not original.
No matter how you build it, or what cards are in it, 5 Color Control is not original.
Tim's Exalted deck was original.
5 Color Control is not.
If you are running vivid lands, Reflecting Pool, Cryptic Command, Mulldrifter, and Cruel Ultimatum in the same deck, you are not original.
I don't mean any ill words towards anyone. I'm just stating a fact.
If you would like to discuss what original is with me, I'd be more than happy to. I don't care if you didn't look off the internet. The fact is that 75% of that deck can be found on netdeck lists at starcitygames. The addition of Worldheart Phoenix, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, and Obelisk of Alara does not make a deck original, it makes the use of those cards original. I beg you to find Tim's exalted list anywhere on the internet. If both Tim and Trevor's decks have been used before in a tournament at the Horse, then I apologize for any harsh or rude comment I have made in this post, and P-dude's list is probably the most original out of every list that was there. Again, I don't want to cause controversy, and I really don't need an explanation because it's not my choice who gets originality.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| It's a great thing about America to be able to peacefully disagree with someone else's opinion.
Pwn'd. |
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| I did give Tim a secondary originality pack but I can't put two names on the website here for originality for the same tournament. And at least a part of originality for me is running cards at The Horse that other people have not run in a constructed tournament and Pdude ran 2 Worldly Phoenix and 1 Bolas which I had not seen anyone else run outside of drafts or sealed deck tournaments and I know Tim ran a few exalted creatures that other people have not run before so he got a pack but seeing as the site here only allowed one spot for originality I gave it to the Phoenix card mainly. And technically the exalted theme isn't totally original as I build a mono-white deck that Dylan ran once or twice on a tuesday and it had a exalted theme to it.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| Alright, that seems logical enough. I was just a little confused. I also hate playing against 5 Color Control. LOL
Pwn'd. |
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| Most people do, it is tough to pick something original when we only get 5-7 players too so I suppose if nothing really jumps out at me I may just not award originality to anyone for that particular tournament but I am thinking about bumping the originality prize to two packs instead of one but someone will really have to wow me to get the extra pack!
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| That seems pretty cool.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| Ben, I can understand why you are rabbling, but I usually bring different decks for every tournament or change up one of mine. I built that deck from scratch. I know those cards are in every 5CC deck, but that's not the only 5CC deck that I've played down there. I could complain that every deck with Bitterblossom in it is not original just because it is that broken. I build decks that are fun for me to play, not to play against. I honestly don't care what you have to say about the decks I build. I like to try different things, and I wanted to try Worldheart Phoenix, Nicol Bolas Planeswalker, and Obelisk of Alara. If you have a problem with that, build your own original deck. I think you are saying, Ben, is that only bad decks should get originality. |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| No, what I am saying, though, is that in the past, almost every single time, Originality=Match Loss. Thats the facts that I have seen. LOL I have to rabble when somebody actually wins originality and the tournament!
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| Hey, someone had to do it. I do understand your point that a 5CC deck shouldn't win originality, but who else besides me is going to play those three cards in Standard? I should be there tomorrow and should win originality again. Even if I do horrible, I still would get something out of it. |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| Do we have a tournament tomorrow? It doesn't say so on this site.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| nvm, forgot about that. well, if we did have a tournament tomorrow, i probably would have won originality. |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I am with Ben here and I guess the overall concept of originality. Unless there is a requirement that every tournament requires an originality winner. Some times there are just no original decks. I didn't see Tim's deck, but exalted isn't "original" I can read penny dudes and while it is a little different, It is by no means original. It takes little inovation or orginality to take a solid deck and throw in some cards that you think will work well in it. Originality (to me) is an entire deck structure.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Yep I do agree that sometimes there are no truely original decks at The Horse but I still like the idea that someone can build something to wow me.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| So, Matt, are you saying that I net-decked and just added a couple of cards to it? |
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| Date Posted: 3/2/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| No. I'm saying you took an archtype and added a couple of cards to it.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 3/3/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I think "netdecking" is dead because everyone and their dog seems to do it. Taking spins on different archtypes is essentially taking a "netdeck" archtype and adding and subtracting cards.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 3/3/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| Or, alternatively, you could do what I do to win and just use the exact list on the internet. That seems to work the most for me.
Pwn'd. |
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| Or you can do what I do when I play on non-sanctioned standard and grab a whole bunch of decent to highly playable cards and start brainstorming and build a deck or two out of your ideas without the use of the net or a computer at all. And I usually build a competitive deck that does play some "netdeck" cards (such as Thoughtseize) but to me it's not a "netdeck" as I really try to ignore any archtypes when I'm building the deck.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 3/3/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| That's pretty much what I do, Martin. |
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 | Date Posted: 3/5/2009
Posted By: Jeremy Banks
Member Since: 5/3/2008
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| Personal thought.... To me, originality in Magic has to be just anything different. I think if you isolate all the good cards from standard decks from originality there would only be crap left. Good cards are called that for a reason... THEY ARE GOOD TO USE!!!! Crap cards are called that for a reason... THEY ARE CRAPPY!!! I don't think you can isolate 5CC as automatically non-original. If so, I can't imagine a deck archetype that hasn't been done. Weenie beatdown... not original then. Zoo... not original then. U/W control.... been done. Notable mention: Winning with artifacts and burn, artifacts and counterspells, ISLANDS!!!!, artifacts with a white spell imprinted on them; decking; life gain; Etc... Magic has been around long enough that winning in almost every fashion has been done. I accept Martin's philosophy on originality because I like seeing some cards that aren't all over the place, even if they are few and far between.
“Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.” - Ratadrabik of Urborg |
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| Date Posted: 3/6/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| It's not just about Archtype. You can absolutely build an original burn deck, or discard deck. But it will probably be blue/green burn. Or Blue discard with cards like forget and wistful thinking. There is plenty of room for "Original" deck builing in the tens of thousands of cards that are Magic. The problem is that typically these decks aren't very good! (I have a lot of experience building these not-good decks.) But the guy who decided that rhox war monk is better than kitchen finks in 5cc? was that an original deck or just an upgrade to an existing deck? I think that if you just take an existing deck and flip in some cards that you think will work well in it is just modifying the deck in a horizontal fashion. It may have been an original idea for the deck, but that doesn't make it an original deck. If someone was to throw Nicol Bolas into kithkin just to get him out via a windbrisk heights, that may be neat and cool, but they are still fundamentally playing the same kithkin deck.
I think the first guy who built 5cc was original. I think the first guy who built Teps was original. Swans, Solitary Confinement, etc. There are a lot of good original decks, I have yet to build one (mine always are middle of the road.)
I don't think you can take a mechanic or anything else that is set specific and build a deck around it. Faeries, Kithkin, Treefolk, Elementals, Exalted. Those are the decks people are "supposed" to build after the set comes out.
A guy I played here in springfield had a really nice pseudo burn deck with mana barbs and runed halo and it did really well only losing to Jeremiah in the finals.
All I'm saying is you can't play 45 cards of a specific deck and then throw in some of your own and call it original. It is just a modification of the existing deck.
If it was different then every net-deck I have ever run I should win originality for because I never own the exact deck list. I got 2 bitterblossoms. 2 ram gangs. 3 cameleon collosus, etc.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 3/14/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Now this new one looks original P-Dood, like It!
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 3/14/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| Thanks. It was a blast to play! |
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| Date Posted: 3/15/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| I probably won't be playing that deck again. I just got really lucky. 38 lands FTW! |
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| I'm not sure that the guy who first built the Quick n Toast/ 5 Color Control deck was original, unless you are referring to Brian Weissman back in 1995. Even in 1995, 5cc had it's antecednets in earlier multicolor control decks. Mana Barbs decks using Circle of Protection Red were a staple of the early MTG tournament scene, so I'm not certain that replacing CoP Red with Runed Halo 10 years later necessarily counts as original. Solitary Confinement traces its roots back to early prison/ lock strategies such as Stasis and Winter Orb decks, so I would not consider this an original strategy either. It is merely a variant of a preexisting archtype. Infinite combo decks have also been around since the early days of magic, such as the old Vercursion decks from the mid 1990's and the Prosperous Bloom decks of the later 1990's. The only recent decks I would consider genuinely original would be Dredge and possibly Landstill, although these contain elements of the older reanimator and control archtypes. New mechanics seem to be the only source for truly original decks, but even these seem to borrow heavily from older strategies. I'm not certain if it is possible to make a truly orginal deck.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| “Originality is the art of concealing your sources” - Benjamin Franklin
“It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.” - Herman Melville
“Originality is the one thing which unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of.” - John Stuart Mill
“The principal mark of genius is not perfection, but originality.” - Arthur Koestler
“The world in general doesn't know what to make of originality; it is startled out of its comfortable habits of thought, and its first reaction is one of anger.” - William Somerset Maugham
“I used to make original snowmen, but it was time consuming, hard work. So I said, heck, this is crazy! Now I crank out crude imitations of what's already popular! It takes no time or thought, and most people don't care about the difference, anyway! And what good is originality if you can't crank it out?” - Bill Watterson, author of Calvin & Hobbes
"True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read." - Pliny the Elder |
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