 | Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
Number of Replies: 18
Last Post: 5/27/2009 |
| | When drafting at the Horse | Martin, I heard this from a Judge in Indianapolis, and I think you should tell everyone to do this before the draft tonight, as to avoid the stupid crap that happened last time.
Never have more than 3 packs around you at one time.
That means that if a pack is sitting down on the table in between you and the player you are passing to, then don't lay the pack in your hands down yet. Never put multiple packs next to each other. You should only ever have one pack on the table in between you and the person you are passing to, one pack in your hand, and one pack in between you and the person passing packs to you. It's as simple as if you see a pack laying on the table to where you want to pass, wait until that pack is gone to lay another one.
Pwn'd. |
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 | Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Yes and if you ask that judge he will tell you there is a time limit for looking at the cards, I believe it is 90 seconds for the first 4 cards then 60 seconds for the next 5 cards and then 30 seconds for the last 4 or 5 cards left. We can wait to pass until everyone has a card and count before passing I don't mind that but people need to speed up their looking of the cards, someone taking 5 minutes looking at 15 cards is too much time.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| With the system of no more than 3 packs per person at a time, it will be easy to tell who is holding up the draft because everyone who has to wait will be looking for the guy holding up the draft, and that guy will therefore get much verbal abuse from the other players. The best policy is to count to yourself those 60 seconds and then start yelling at people to get a move on.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| The only problem that I ever see at the Horse is dumb people putting packs right next to each other on the table. That needs to stop. If that happens I don't think anyone will ever not have the correct number when it's over. Sure, we can all start blaming the "noobs" for the inconsistency, but it's totally possible that any one of us screwed up and didn't realize it. I've seen several instances as to where somebody has put a pack on top of another pack and didn't even realize it, or put a pack in front of another pack when it should be behind. The rule of 3 solves it all. Everyone just needs to learn it.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Well last time was the worst instance of screw-ups at a 3 pack draft I had ever seen and I am not going to point fingers but there was one side of the table that was ummm not exactly keeping track of cards well, i.e. passing 12 cards and then passing only 8 you have to stop right there and realize maybe there is something going wrong. No extra cards or packs at the table tonight or for Saturday and keep the drinks and food off the draft tables, you guys can wait 5 minutes to drink and/or eat!
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I do think a pack was stacked. How else do you explain that one pack that had 2 of the same non-foil common in it?
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I asked Riki Hayashi about this and this is what he had to say:
Some possible problems and solutions:
a) The packs may have different numbers of cards. I haven't seen this happen in many, many years, but I thought I would mention it for completeness.
b) Some people could be taking out the land from the pack while others are not. I've seen this happen. There needs to be clear instructions at the beginning of the draft on what to do with the basics (but leave foil basics in!)
c) your rule of 3 is what we call "Zone Drafting." You do not pass a pack if there is already one in the next zone waiting to be picked up. This cuts down on problems like packs being picked up out of order or being accidentally combined. You're not finishing faster than the slowest drafter anyway, so there is no point to hurrying ahead and causing a pileup.
d) I haven't seen multiple non-foil commons in the same pack since Darksteel, nor have I heard of any collation problems with recent sets. It is always a possibility, but I tend to suspect cheating in this case. It is somewhat sloppy though to leave "evidence" like this.
e) You might want to enforce the rule that you cannot pick up a card from your pile once you have picked it (or suggest that your Judge enforce this). This should cut down on potential switchery. This is an actual rule, but doesn't tend to get enforced outside of PT/GPs.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I do think pile-ups can cause a lot of confusion and I don't know if someone was really trying to cheat last time but if you get passed 12 cards and then 8 you have to say wait a minute what's going on here. I think point C is one we should definately use at the Horse.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Tim Scott
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| I do not remember which card it was exactly, but I openened the pack (or maybe Christian di, as he was passing to me) with the double common. But the Indy guy is right, that is extremely rare
Evil will always triump because good is dumb. |
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 | Date Posted: 5/26/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I cracked a conflux pack in a draft at my house that had 2 of the same uncommon (Not Foil).... When I mentioned this, people seemed to say it wasn't that unusual. Hopefully after saying that they were not foil eleventy thousand times people grasped what i was saying, but maybe not.
I think rules are there to keep the idiots from screwing up everyone elses fun. Is the zone drafting a good idea? Probably, because people are stupid.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Players are also supposed to have 90 seconds to sort and review cards before opening the next pack. We never seem to take time for this.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 5/27/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| It is 90 seconds for the first 4 cards, then only 60 seconds for the next 5 or 6 and then only 30 seconds. I thought last night was fine, no one took extra time really and everybody had the right amount of cards after each pack.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 5/27/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Oh you mean between packs? That is fine by me but most people seem to review their cards while they are waiting for their next card so they don't really seem to need the time in between packs but I don't have a problem with it.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 5/27/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| You're not supposed to look at any card you have picked while you are in the middle of drafting a pack, only after the pack is complete and the next pack is not open, in which case you have the 90 seconds Christian talked about. And, you are never, ever allowed to look at your last pick, etc. Thats cheating. You need to remember what you picked, at least until the end of the pack, so you can review.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 5/27/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| It's not cheating to "look" at your picks while drafting. If that was the case your cards would not be displayed to you when drafting online. The rule is in place for cheaters. If you are handling your cards while you are also picking cards, there is the possibility that (someone with a low degree of fairness and ethics) would swap out cards.
It is just like while playing, you shouldn't pick up your lands and "add" them to your hand in the process of tapping them. You also should put your hand to the side when playing spells like ponder. (Not holding your "Hand" in one hand and the ponder cards in the other).
I think the issue here (Of course I'm not sure what happened to inspire this discussion in the first place) is that most of us (if not all) like to think that at the Horse, and in general people are good and we give them the benefit of the doubt that they aren't going to try and cheat us. By playing an extra land, or not putting the two cards from ponder back in their library. Or not drawing extra cards.
Does our trust mean it doesn't happen? Of course not. If there is something of value to win, there will be people who will do underhanded things to win it.
If this is a problem, then I guess Martin needs to be a hard ass and enforce these rules, or hire(?) a judge to enforce the rules.
What did happen to inspire this thread?
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 5/27/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| The week before we had a 3 pack Alara Reborn draft and in all three packs there was problems with people not having the right number of cards when they were done with that pack and people passing 12 and next passing 8 cards, but in my opinion there were two people on one end of the table that were not experienced drafters and I think that is where the problem was(pretty sure of it). Now if either one of those people were trying to cheat(which I don't think they were) they didn't do a very good job of it because I don't think either one made top 4 or 5. Last night was fine, no problems with wrong amount of cards,etc. And while I realize that for some formats like the all-rare draft where you may not be as familiar with some of the cards you may need the extra 90 seconds between packs to review your picks but last night was Shards/Conflux/Reborn draft and just speaking for myself I am really familiar with the cards and I knew what color scheme I was going for after about the 5th or 6th card in the very first pack so I saw no need to take any time to review my cards between packs but I do understand the need for 5/5/5 and all-rare drafts for taking the extra time between packs.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 5/27/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I remember drafting Mirrodin for the first time at I-Con or something at the Convention Center.... The time rules were enforced there and I was rushed every single pick. I don't know what the time span was (90 seconds seems like a long time) but not being familiar with the cards at all, you need to read them. and maybe 6 seconds per card isn't enough time!
But unless you have a reading disability, 5 minutes may be a little too long! For those of us.. (Now) who are very familiar with the cards, and what to draft, picks only take 3 seconds. so waiting that extra 87 seconds can seem like forever.
I know how impatient people get for the elevator door to close, and that literally only takes 2 seconds.... but they still need to push that button to get it done in 1.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 5/27/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I think once you have drafted say Shards block 3-5 times you really should be familiar with 99% of the cards but I do realize that some people like to read a little longer than others. I know I would take a little more time myself for the all-rare draft and not because of bigger prize support but just because I am not familiar with about 40-50% of cards before Onslaught because that is when I started playing Magic. It will be difficult to watch 4 draft tables for the all-rare draft(even if I had a Judge there with me)with a stop watch for each pack but if one or two people are obviously taking more than 2 minutes per pick they will be asked to speed it up, but I will try to give everyone at least 60-90 seconds in between packs to review their cards.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Pro players reccomend taking the time between packs to organize your cards and see what your potential deck looks like in terms of mana curve, number of creatures, mana fixers, and color requirements. This seems like a good idea to me.
The "rule of three"/ "zone drafting" rule makes a lot of sense in terms of avoiding potential mix ups. Some players often end up with a trail of three or four packs waiting for them to draft from. It seems easy to make a mistake and grab the wrong pile.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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