 | Date Posted: 7/6/2010
Posted By: Evan Wells
Joined before August '08
Number of Replies: 15
Last Post: 7/29/2010 |
| | jund | why do people still hate this deck soo much? i love playing it and people bitch about it not being very skill intensive but i feel like if u make 1 mistake with jund you are always punished big time. Like last friday i played steve and i had 2 day of judgements in hand a 15 15 kotr on the feild and 2 stiring wildwoods out and he was at 1 life the only thing keeping me from swinging was that he had 2 man lavaclaw reeches out a thrinax token and a thrinax itself. On his turn he played a seige gang commander and a sharkan the mad popping off the thrinax i punished him by playing the day of judgement and activating my land to win.It seems like sacing a thrinax would always be a great idea for a 5/5 dragon and an army of dudes staring your opponent down but it seems like jund is a huge risk taking deck. jund is a very versitile deck with a ton of different builds and options of what to play in the deck. with other decks such as super freinds u just tap out every turn and play the most expensive spell in your hand alot of times i find my self asking weather to play a thrinax blightning my opponent or to ure a terminate or a bolt on turn 3. there are decks out there that beat jund like a small child such as blue white tapout and mythic but jund will get lucky alot of times and beat them or will just out race them or kill their creatures until the opponent has no win option. ive seen so many jund matches lost because they malestrom pulse a turn to early against a baneslayer angel or a different big beater that they cannot deal with a second copy of. to me vengevine naya without cunning sparkmage mb sould be able to destroy jund most of the time they just present to many threats and will best jund easily mosy of the time, it changes after sideboarding and they bring in something like chain reaction to kill your stuff early or jund charm to remove your graveyard and get rid of the veggie vines or whenever they thoughgt hemmorage out vengevine. but they are not gaurenteed to see those cards. i just think people need to build a bridge and get over it. master of the wild hund in a green white deck seems like it beats jund single handedly if u get a kotr to start ripping out sejeri steppes and u could also play emerge unscathed to further keep the master alive. i will however say this, against blue white spreading seas decks it if junds fault that it looses the jund player should be playing either trace of abundance, rampant growth or lotus corba to keep them safe from the peice of shit that is known as spreading seas. so next time if you make a homemade deck to play be sure u have a way of beating jund itself
"You're the worst person to looose to" annonymous |
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 | Date Posted: 7/6/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Wall of text is unpunctuated for the most part.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| I need a Juggernaut to get through that Wall of Text! Well in the interest of brevity I won't comment on each and every un-punctuated sentence in that mess of a paragraph; however, I will generally answer a few of your points. Why do people hate Jund so much? Well, I can only answer for myself. I hate that stupid fucking deck because a) Everyone sucks it's knob so much, b) I despise most net decks, c) It is the least skill intensive deck behind RDW, d) It rewards bad play because of how forgiving it is [more on that in a jiff] and 5) It sucks.
My argument about this deck used to be that it was too damn easy to pilot. That's not wholly accurate. There are some tough decisions to make in Jund. On the flip side, Jund is incredibly forgiving. Which is to say, you can make play errors with the deck and still win handily. Admittedly this is not as true not as it was several months ago. The Jund Menace was so terribly frightening in it's day that the common man decided it had to be stood up against. So now, you see, many of the decks in Standard were tested to the point that they had a good shot against Jund. You'll notice that many of the decks in the format are considered heavy favorites against Jund. This includdes U/W Tapout, Super Friends, RDW, and pretty much anything in Bant colors. Seems the only deck Jund gets to beat up on anymore is Naya builds, and with the advent of Vengevine even that is no longer the case.
So now the question is...Why are so many Jund decks still rearing their ugly heads in Top Eights? One mathematical equation and one fairly easy to comprehend concept can answer that. Point #1: Jund shows up in droves. Jund still makes up a crushing number of total decks at all the large events. This is due mostly to the fact that it's been around the longest and it is one of the cheapest decks to build. It's called the shotgun effect. Kind of like when my fat-ass high school gym teacher won an X-Box at Taco Bell. Well, she ate there so fucking much that no wonder she won the damned thing. Point #2: Jund is such a deck that it just wins for being lucky. Turn 2 Leech into turn 3 Blightning into Turn 4 Bloodbraid into Blightning is just unwinnable for most decks.
Hope this answers your question at least in part. Oh, and on a final note: FUCK JUND.
"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." Barack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 7/7/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Josh had alot of good points about jund. But I think that I can awnser your question from another angle, evan. Down here, where I am from, jund is a popular deck. People love it because it is a proven winner and, as josh pointed out, is both reletively inexpensive to build ( just try building mythic or woods esper! ) and very forgiving of play mistakes. But to say that jund isnt skill intensive is just not understanding the deck! Where I am at, jund is a deck that will ALWAYS show up at a tournament. If you want to win the tournament, you have to be prepared for the jund deck! But my new home is a different place than the horse. At the horse, there is more of a casual crowd. And most casual players find that it is easier to complain about the " best deck " than it is to beat it! Evan, I played at the horse for about 4 years, and it is always the same. Complaints about affinity, urza-tron, faeries, 5-color control, the list of decks complained about goes on and on! When you play at a casual store, like the horse, big time tier 1 decks are ALWAYS hated upon! And one last thing, I can kind of see both sides of the " netdeck " debate. I agree with the casual crowd that it gets tiresome going to a casual tournament and playing vs. netdecks all day long! However, I can also agree with the jund players in the world. The way that I see it is that if I spend the money to build MY collection, then I should be able to use that collection of cards to build ANY deck that I want to play! It seems like the same old " origional decks vs. net decks " aurguement that has been at the horse for the last 2-3 years. So my advice, evan, is to play whatever you want to play and dont worry about what others say. Thats what I did, and what christian continues to do, and it works out for us just fine!
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Kind of off topic here but Josh your high school gym teacher was a woman? Jund is simply one of the most played net decks still so like affinity it gets hated on and hated out at tournament scenes.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| I actually like Jund. It's an interactive, creature based deck that wins through attacking and burn. The most annoying factor about the deck is the cascade ability, which can generate some random wins out of nowhere. The one thing it has in common with other dominate decks of their era (such as Necropotence, Affinity, and Faeries) is that it is a very hard deck to hate out. Even if you load your main deck with Celestial Purges, Flashfreezes, and Spreading Seas you are still going to lose at least 40% of the time. Jund has some bad matchups (burn heavy mono-red and Finest Hour Mythic0, but even these matches are winable.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/7/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Evrey era in magic has its " boogeyman " deck. Period. The problem here is the casual vs. competitive crowd. The casual crowd wants to build thier own origional decks, which is fine. However, not everyone is going to play magic like the casual crowd. I can respect the origionality drive in some people, but in tournament magic, origionality comes with a price. Historically speaking, origional decks tend to not fare well in a room with tier 1 netdecks. If you build a origional deck, and you kick ass at a competitive tournament, good for you, that is a respectable accomplishment. But, if you do build an origional deck and lose, that is part of the risk. I bet if you monitor the room, complaints about jund and other netdecks are loudest when origional decks are loseing to these tier 1 decks. To be origional, you have to take the good with the bad. I HATE PLAYING VS. JUND!!!! However, instead of complaining about jund, which would get me nowhere, I think about ways to beat it. In total, I am probably 50-50 in matches vs. jund, which shows that with some honest thought, any deck can be prepared for.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 7/7/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Steve and I both heard "Should have played jund" multiple times at the 5k.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 7/7/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Everybody loves to come out and say that thier pet deck is favorable vs jund! ( does this in any way remind you of fearies?? ) However, in my opinion, jund is still the best deck. It is so versitile, it can be built to beat anything.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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 | Date Posted: 7/7/2010
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I don't play enough Standard to really comment with authority, but I did play jund at Cap City for a tournament. It was a couple months ago, pre ROE and hadn't playd standard in a month or two. I starcitygames'd it up and built a Jund in about 5 minutes (approximately the time I had till I had to leave the house). Never played it. Never seen it played. First round I played Jeremiah and after a poor display of my shuffling ability, he knew what I was playing. And he was playing Vampires. I asked him who was supposed to win this match-up since I had no idea and He sadly pointed at me. All my matches were draw go auto-pilot. I know I didn't know what I was doing. I know that I made mistakes. But when you can bloodbraid blightning, or bit-blast, bloodbraid, terminate, it isn't to tough.
That was first round, and in the following rounds I played eldrazi-green, some kind of Man-Land / removal build and A Jace Mill Deck. Nothing was ever a contest, as I always cascaded into the win. Pretty much everyone in the place was giving me shit for always hitting the blightning, or pulse, but what else are you supposed to hit? I won the night super easy, and was suprised that I didn't see anyone else playing the deck (except Peel, he was not as fortunate as me).
Now I'll be the first to admit I am not a omplete reh-tard, but I never had to do anything other than play lands, tap lands and play spells. It was a thought free experience.
Now I can't speak for other Jund players, and I haven't played in the current meta, but to me this is why people *should* hate jund. Because tools like me with no prior experience and a slight bit of competency can walk away with an effortless win.
Again, I don't know what the current meta even looks or plays like, but those are my two cents.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 7/7/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Its alot harder to play the control matches well.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Specifically hitting up some remarks now:
Martin: We had several gym teachers at my high school and one of them was a huge hog beast woman. Shouldn't your gym teacher have to at least be moderately in shape?
Dale: Winning any tournament with an original deck is beyond respectable. It takes a massive amount of ingenuity, ample play testing and solid piloting. Not to mention the ability to have at least a favorable match-up against almost every net deck in the field. Let also not forget that every net deck was once an original deck.
Dale Again: You bought your cards and you can build whatever you want to play, and you're right; it's hard to argue with results. That being said, I reserve my right to point out your inability to be creative and take the easy way out by carbon copying some other deck just because it won a major tournament.
More Dale: Building an original deck and losing at a tournament is part of the risk. Wait a minute...building ANY deck and losing is part of the risk. You think there aren't Jund decks that 0-2 drop at tournaments?
Still Dale: This is not a Casual vs. Competitive conversation. I think everyone who plays at the Horse a)wants to win and b) brings what they believe is a competitive deck to achieve a). I despise decks that like Jund because all of a sudden my card pool shrinks. Every deck I build I have to ask myself if it can beat Jund. For instance, I built a really nasty Mono Black Control deck this week. I playtested all week against decks like Naya Vengevine, Elfdrazi, Esper, and Next Level Bant. My deck was handily beating their asses. Then I test against Jund. I'm not even in the neighborhood of winning. Even sideboarding was useless. So you know what? I'm not going to play it this Friday. I know there will be Jund there, and I have no intentions of going into a tournament without the ability to beat the Red, Green, and Black Menace. That's the breaks I guess. Being an innovator has it's price and sometimes that means that no matter how much I like my deck, the meta just isn't quite right for it.
Here's what it all comes down to and maybe I'll write an article on this as I've been meaning to for a long time. Back when I started it was all original decks. The convenience of the internet wasn't there to show us all how to build Magic decks that win. It took trial and error, massive failures and a lot of brainstorming to come up with something good. But I tell you what, the sense of accomplishment was amazing. There's still nothing like stomping people with a truly original deck. A deck you can call your own. I still chase that feeling today. I believe that creating your own decks is one of the best ways to improve yourself as a Magic player. It takes discipline, creativity and forces you to understand why some cards are good, some are horrible and some are synergistic. I always encourage others to work on new archtypes and I'm always available via messaging to help you develop those ideas. To put it as frankly as possible: Netdecking feels like cheating to me. I've always despised it and on the rare occasions where I did it, I didn't like the feeling of it. Happy deck building to everyone out there and please don't hesitate to message me with any hair-brained ideas you might have for your next winning home brew!
Did I mention that I placed 28th in St. Louis with an original deck? Oh, and that every deck I played there was a net deck? Sometimes playing an original deck at a large tournament is the best way to advance in it. Nobody knew what I was playing, it forced them to make bad decisions based upon false assumptions about what I was playing, and people weren't sure how to sideboard against me. I had play tested against all of their decks. Wanna guess how many of them had play tested against mine?
"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." Barack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 7/8/2010
Posted By: Tim Scott
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| The original question was "Why hate Jund?'
The answer is simple. It is/was the same answer for hating faries, jund ramp, affinity, squirrel opposition etc.
The answer is because when a format is "How do I sidebpoard against THIS ONE deck?" and NOT "How do I sideboard against THESE 3,4,5,6 or even 7 decks?" then it shows EXACTLY the reason iI personaly hate constructed. Granted, Jund is not quite what it was before rise but 95%or more of the cards are still ther and will still be after M11.But the fact remains if Wizards truly wanted equality then sets would be more balanced.
Evil will always triump because good is dumb. |
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| In my opinion creativity is a big deal in casual play but a nonfactor in competitive play. It's merely a matter of personal preference. Having said that, building an original deck can give you a significant advantage, as most opponents don't know what's in your deck or how to play against it. Building a good original deck is pretty time consuming though, as you need to spend a lot of time testing it against the better existing deck and tweaking it as you go along. And "net" decks existed well before the ascent of the internet. You just had to read books and magazine articles to find them. As fewer people read books regularly as opposed to spending time online, it made the dispersion of top decks into local tournaments less of a factor. The Weismann deck and multiple other top Vintage Decks were pretty popular back in the mid 90's. And the Necropotence decks of the early Standard era were virtually everywhere even before the advent of The Dojo or Star City.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/9/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I think that I was misunderstood with my casual vs. competitive remarks. First off, I never said that people at the horse didnt play to win. I know better than to mistakenly say that. And I wasnt disrespecting origional deckbuilding ( at least I didnt mean to, sorry if that was the way that it was taken ). However, I would be remiss to point out that your deck at the 5K, Which I liked the build of by the way, WASNT completely origional. You yourself said that your deck was mythic without blue and with admonition angels. Sometimes, that is what creativity does, it takes an existing deck and improves upon it. And one last thing, as ive already said, I wasnt trying to disrespect origionality at all. But what I said about netdeck complaints was true. When origional decks beat netdecks, complaints wernt as loud as when the netdecks were winning.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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 | Date Posted: 7/29/2010
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| Good points made in this thread:
Innovative deckbuilding makes you a good Magic player.
Net decks win.
Net decks also lose.
Original decks win.
Original decks also lose.
Using your brain sometimes isn't necessary to win.
Dumb points made in this thread:
Net decking is stupid.
Using an original deck is stupid.
Jund does good and stuff.
Number one thing to take away from all this:
STOP COMPLAINING, STOP FAILING, AND START WINNING.
Pwn'd. |
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