| Date Posted: 7/14/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
Number of Replies: 42
Last Post: 7/23/2010 |
| | Legacy | I would like to ask a question or two about legacy, just to see what other people think about it. Anyones opinion is welcome and very much appriciated.
You see, there is a debate raging on where I live about legacy. There are some people who are very unhappy with the banning of mystical tutor. They claim that legacy was fine before the banhammer got involved. There is another group who is very happy with legacy now, after the banning of m. tutor. And there is a third group which thinks that wizards didnt go far enough with only banning mystical tutor. And, finally, there is a group which hates legacy altogether despite any bannings . They believe that legacy is to expensive to be played competitively regardless of what you may ban.
I am part of the third group, but barely. For the most part, I love legacy and think that it is fine, with a couple of exceptions. I think that wizards got it right with mystical tutor. I just believe that they also should have banned both lions eye diamond and bridge from below as well. And the reason that I believe this is because turn 2 kills takes the fun out of the game. Nothing sucks worse than my opponent playing 3 mana exelerant spells, playing charbelcher and lions eye diamond, useing diamond to activate belcher and nailing me for 52 damage! WOW, what fun that was! And dredge is just to fast and to consistant. I believe that wizards should do everything in thier power to eliminate turn 1 and turn 2 kills from the game. If you cant find defense from thier combo by turn 3, then you deserve to lose, in my opinion.
Lastly, I am kind of torn about force of will. I think that force is a great card in legacy, kind of like bitterblossom and bloodbraid were and are good cards in standard. From a power prespective, I think that force is fine in legacy. However, I would love to see a legacy where force didnt exist, because lets face it, to be competitive in legacy, your collection should include force of will. It is kind of like baneslayer in standard. You can play white without it, but do you really want to?
Well, those are my thoughts. Please let me know what you guys think, as your input would be very much appriciated.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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 | Date Posted: 7/14/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| A legacy wihtout force would be "Oh, you are playing combo? GG." I've been playing alot of legacy on MWS lately, testing out a deck I made and Legacy is extremely diverse
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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 | Date Posted: 7/14/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Maybe I just don't see enough Legacy anymore or I just see what few Legacy decks we get at the Horse but it just doesn't seem that diverse to me. It seems like Zoo or some combo like Dredge or or that Belcher deck that Mr. Peel likes to play and it seems like every deck that isn't Zoo has 4 copies of Force of Will in it. I guess the main reason I don't try to really get back in to Legacy is because it is so expensive though. Some people complain about Standard getting too expensive but try to get a Legacy deck with say 4 Force of Will, say 8 Dual Lands, 8 Fetch lands and some other random cards and you may be talking about a $750-$800 deck and that is just one deck. It is just too much for me to try to collect Legacy cards along with all the Standard and even Extended cards that I try to keep up with.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 7/14/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Most decks do share force of will, but there are many different combo decks, tempo/threshold, Zoo, disruption, reanimator and others.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| I had no problem with Mystical Tutor. It was an important component of Reanimator and Ad Nauseum decks, but both decks remain perfectly viable without it.
Force of Will is necessary to keep combo decks, such as Charbelcher, under control. It's the card that stops the first turn win. Without it the format would be entirely composed of combo decks that can win by turn three.
Some of the best Legacy decks are quite affordable. Merfolk is one of the top decks in the format, and the only expensive cards in the deck are Force of Will. It uses only basic islands, Mishra's Factories, and Wastelands. It normally plays no fetchlands or duals. A good Legacy merfolk deck costs much less than a good Standard deck running a playset of Baneslayer Angels or Jace, The Mindsculptors. Goblins are an equally affordable tier 1 deck. The better versions of the deck are mono-red with no duals, although it normally plays fetch lands. Goblins are even cheaper than merfolk to build. You could easily afford both decks for half the price of a Standard Mythic deck. Mono Red burn is another inexpensive deck that ends up winning a large Legacy event every now and then. The mono blue control deck that has popped up recently is also very cheap to put together. Once again the only expensive card is Force of Will, which is in roughly the same price range as Baneslayer Angel and far cheaper than Jace.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/15/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I suppose the one card I should invest in is Force of Will if I want to play Legacy. Like you say it is the only thing that stops turn 1 kills (Tony K. I am looking at you!) and I guess $150 for a playset of them isn't too bad. I guess my other problem is that I hate playing blue and I hate playing combo decks but if I want to compete against the combo decks I have to be playing Force of Will. Just not really my cup of tea but to each his own.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 7/15/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| You know even a card like Wasteland is currently at $20 a pop on Ebay, still pretty expensive for a uncommon.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| The new white leyline can stop a lot of those first turn kills. Black has a lot of cheap disruption that screws over combo and blue decks in general. Nothing sucks like a dark ritual, duress/thoughtseize, hymn to tourach first turn.
I spend way more money on type 2 cards. The format is always changing. New cards coming into the fold. Few cards make the cut for legacy. I think most people are intimidated by the initial cost into 1.5, and it's only going to get more expensive as time goes on. After that you get an occasional card that comes out in a new set, which if you play type 2 you're probably getting anyways.
"True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read." - Pliny the Elder |
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| Date Posted: 7/15/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| The big difference for me is that I have a ton of Standard/Extended cards right now including some of the more expensive ones like Baneslayer Angel, Vengevine, Gideon, etc. but in Legacy I have pretty much zero cards as in not a single dual land or Force of Will or fetchland from Onslaught so for me the task of starting a Legacy collection is much more daunting than simply continuing my Standard collection. I suppose I can buy just the cards for the Merfolk deck but I tend to get bored playing one deck over and over so I would want more than just a single deck. I don't think a mono red goblin or burn deck is good enough in Legacy anymore as they will lose most of the time to combo decks and even against Zoo or Merfolk it is probably a difficult match.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Goblins won a 5k Legacy event recently.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/15/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| In the deck i've been hella playing in legacy, the only expensive card is Force.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Goblins also finished 2nd in the Indianapolis 5k and took 4th and 5th place at the St. Louis 5k.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/16/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Were those mono red goblin decks or black/red?
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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 | Date Posted: 7/16/2010
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| The one in Indy was mono red and the two in St. Louis were R/B. Goblin decks only splash black for Warren Weirding and sometimes Wort, Boggart Auntie. |
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| Date Posted: 7/16/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Oh yep I just checked the decklists and they seem fairly inexpensive for Goblins but do Goblins really fair well against Charbelcher combo or Reanimator? I guess Reanimator may be slower now but it seems like the Charbelcher deck like the one Jeff Peel runs combos out on turn 2 or 3 almost every time and it doesn't seem like the Goblin deck would stand much of a chance there?
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| People really wants you to play goblins Martin.
"True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read." - Pliny the Elder |
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| Date Posted: 7/16/2010
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| Reanimator may not be that bad if you are playing Warren Weirding. In order to beat the Belcher deck, you would pretty much have to put 4 Mindbreak Trap in the board. |
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| Date Posted: 7/16/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Haha I guess the people have spoken and I need to get a Legacy goblin deck now. I am not too sure how cheap this deck is going to wind up being as Piledriver's are at least $10 each on Ebay and Lackey's are at least $7 each on Ebay but I guess the rest shouldn't be too expensive other than Wasteland.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Warren Wierding gives you a preety good chance vs. reanimator, but Charbelcher is a rough match. At least for the first game
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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 | Date Posted: 7/18/2010
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I think the easy answer here is to just start playing Magic in '94. Problem solved.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Good plan.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/18/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Thanks for the input, the discussion has been interesting. I miss the prices of magiccards at the horse, let me tell you. For the first time in years, I dont have everything that I need in standard. Prices are nuts down here, let me tell you. Baneslayer is still 50, as is force of will. Speaking of force, I believe that you guys are right about it. Without force, combo would go crazy. I just hate to see an entire format like legacy be dependant upon one card! Because, lets face it, a deck like goblins might be competitive, but if you are looking to win and not get lucky, you need force. Thats the way it seems to me.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| I think the White Leyline might help with that. A non-blue player can start with it in play and have a strong defense against Charbelcher and Ad Nauseum. It's also pretty decent against burn.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/19/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| The leyline could be good vs. those decks, but so could pithingneedle. I think, and I could be wrong, that leyline will face the same problems that other permanent based combo solutions will face. I do think that leyline will be a blowout vs. burn, however. As far as stoping belcher, I think that leyline is just a slightly better pithing needle. If only the leyline itself had shroud!
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 7/19/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| White leyline stops the Ad Nauseaum's Tendrils when needle can't.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 7/19/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Lol, there is an article on Starcitygames today about legacy goblins vs legacy merfolk :)
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| I just read that article.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/19/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Silly premium buyer. Copy paste it here, stat.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| But that would be illegal. I'm not looking to go back to the joint.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/19/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| I've fucked guys bigger than you in the joint.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| "I used to fuck guys like you in prison" is the actual Roadhouse quoute. But close enough.
The article wasnt actually as good as most of the Bucher/Ruel brothers columns where they play two top Standard decks against one another. They always play 25 games pre-sideboarded and 25 games after sideboarding. Stephen Menendian only played one game with the two decks, with Goblins winning due to the inability of the Merfolk deck to draw a third land. This didn't seem like a particularly accurate assesment of the matchup.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/20/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Actually, what happens is you play white leyline at the beginning of the game. After that, the tendrils player wiats until turn 3, uses ad nauseam, turns over the top 25-30 cards of his deck. One of those cards is a bounce spell, he plays it and then he beats you as planned! The biggest effect leyline is going to have, and this is generous, is to by you 1-2 turns. That just doesnt seem good to me.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 7/20/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| But if he dosen't hit the bounce spell without the risk of dying, you win.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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 | Date Posted: 7/20/2010
Posted By: Jeff Peel
Joined before August '08
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| See, the thing is though, Leyline is good against Tendrils, but without Mystical Tutor, ANT is practically dead. I won the GPT with Ad Nauseam the day week before Mystical Tutor got banned, and have tried to keep it alive, but it just isn't anywhere near as good. Unless you draw the Ad Nauseam, you have to use something like Lim-Duls Vault to dig for the card, and if you don't see it in the first couple batches of cards, that's another 3+ life you lose, and then another possibly 5-6 cards you get to flip off your Ad Nauseam. Granted it's still possible to get there with Vault, I honestly don't see the deck making Top 8's very often. Just my $.02
This was on Evan Erwin's "The Magic Show", so I'm 100% sure it's correct. |
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| If you're playing Zoo or Stax, those extra 1-2 turns are huge. They give you time to get another defense online, such as Ethersworn Cannonist, Meddling Mage, Gaddog Teeg, Chalice of the Void, or Trinisphere.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/21/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| If you are stacking defenses, using multiple cards to hate out combo, then I can see it. I thought that you guys were just saying that leyline alone would beat the combo decks! My mistake, then.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| No single card should do it against a good combo deck. The main idea is to bide time and get a fast clock/ multiple defenses up and running. If you have a fast deck like Zoo or Merfolk, a few turns is often all you need.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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 | Date Posted: 7/22/2010
Posted By: Evan Wells
Joined before August '08
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| i love this thead considering i am just now getting into legacy. also, there are a lot of random decks that end up top 8 in star city events that ive never seen before, which is really awesome, i would love to be able to build a deck and it be very viable and nobody had seen anything similar. i really love the counter-top reaction in the game it seems really solid but slightly slow. merfolk and goblins seem to be a fairly good game but piledriver is a bitch to deal with. I also love how there are around 10 decks that are teir 1.
"You're the worst person to looose to" annonymous |
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| Date Posted: 7/22/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Evan, we will do some serious legacy testing on MWS when we can. And yes, almost any deck build well in legacy is viable. Even a combo with a card that costs 2UUUU is playable :)
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Legacy is definitely the most diverse Constructed format, in terms of viable decks.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 7/23/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| It definately has the biggest card pool to chose from.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 7/23/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| I still think its funny as hell how i'm 5th in the springfield area in Eternal.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Vintage actually has a slightly larger cardpool but far less deck diversity.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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