| Date Posted: 8/26/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
Number of Replies: 32
Last Post: 8/31/2010 |
| | Magical musings Pt 3 | This topic is one about your preception of the game. But this topic is also one where I think that wizards needs to develop a solution to. This topic is about the formats available for constructed play. The current formats, as far as I know, are standard, block, extended, legacy and vintage, and EDH. I understand that EDH isnt considered a " serious " format. However, EDH has grown in popularity and I think that it deserves to be included among the existing formats. The problem that I see is that, out of the six existing formats, only standard and legacy seem to get any love or support from wizards. I think that for the game to survive, this desperatly needs to change. I remember a few years ago when both extended and block got serious support from wizards. That was when those formats mattered. You could expect to find a sanctioned tournament near you that might cover ANY of those 4 formats, being standard, legacy, block or extended. Oh, how times have changed! Extended has fallen completly off the map, and so has block constructed. This leaves us with only 2 serious formats, standard and legacy. Dont get me wrong, I like both of those formats, I would just love some variety. Legacy also tends to be a format where only the absolutly best cards thrive. For example, look at shards block. There are some good cards there. Alot of cards that I enjoy playing. However, once shards rotates into legacy oblivion, almost all of its good cards will never be played agian. Path, M.pulse, thopter foundry, and wild nactyl are the only ones, other than maybe knight of reliquary that will survive the rotation. I look at my card collection. While it might not compare to christians or M. ratz's collections, I have a ton of cards going all the way back to ice age. Most of my large collection is reletivly useless under the current system. I think that this is something that needs to change, or people are not going to invest in the game. I mean, do you want to go and drop 200$ or a set of primeval titan, only to play them off and on for 1-2 years and then NEVER touch them agian? Because the titan will never see play in any good legacy deck! Tends to be alot of wasted money after a couple of years. The current formats need to change and in a hurry! Here is what I would do if I had any say. I would leave standard, extended, and EDH alone. Standard is fine, EDH is a good casual format and doesnt need to be messed with. If I were to do anything with extended, I would say that it should be standard plus three blocks, instead of just 2 blocks. I would leave block and vintage alone, except to accept the fact that almost no body ever plays vintage. Did you guys ever hear about the rumor of an " over extended " format? For those of you who havent, it is a format where all cards from masks block and up, with the possible banning of skullclamp, would be legal. I would make that format happen pronto! Sense nobody plays vintage, Legacy could move into that spot and be the new vintage. Overextended could be a good format for people like me who want to play old formats, but whom think that it is retarted to shell out 50$ for force of will and anywhere from 40 to 90 for the old school duals. And you would still have alot of the good old cards like ritual and brainstorm without a card like force to completly dominate the format. I think that introducing this new format would provide a buffer zone for people who want to play old formats, but who dont want to pay the rediculous amounts for a few of the legacy staples that never will see reprint because of that stupid no reprint list that wizards loves. Well, let me know if you agree with me or if you dont. And if you think that there is a problem with the formats, but you dont agree with my solution, let me know what your solution would be.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/26/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Something else that I want to explain. I dont hate legacy, in fact I kind of like it. I just think that as a format, legacy is just to fast. Nobody enjoys losing on turn one, and legacy has 3 decks that I know of that are capable of beating you turn one. Charbelcher, tendrils, and dredge all are capabe of turn one wins. The over extended format would fix this problem because if you want to play with the " gloves off ", then legacy is right there for you. If you wanted to play old cards, but actually like taking a turn of 2 before you die, then over extended would be for you.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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 | Date Posted: 8/26/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I kind of like the over extended idea as I have some of the cards all the way back to Masques and those I don't have wouldn't be too expensive to get I suppose. I know Wizards was pushing some multiplayer formats like that one that just came out (the name escapes me) but multiplayer formats never quite catch on at the Hobby Horse anyway. Maybe Wizards should consider some other format like peasant and set their own official rules and actually sanction it. It could be legacy without any rares and only a few rather expensive uncommons I suppose, I know I would give it a shot.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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 | Date Posted: 8/26/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Legacy is not a fast format :/
Sure, you have multiple combo decks that, assuming you are goldfishing, can win on turn 1. That is hardly ever the case. Decks in legacy can use Jace, Goyf and Vendillion Clique as win conditions because the games often go so long. Combo decks aren't even the most popular.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 8/26/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| What legacy have you been playing? I am not saying that ALL combo-decks automatically kill on turns 1-2, but with the possibility of multiple decks capable of doing this, there is a problem! Legacy is an extremely fast format where good decks can kill routinely by turn 4. Take merfolk or goblins, for instance. If you havent won the game playing burn or goblins by turn 4, you are probably screwed! I am not saying that legacy is a bad format, not at all, but it is most definatly a fast format.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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 | Date Posted: 8/27/2010
Posted By: Evan Wells
Joined before August '08
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| I was in Springfeild last night playtesting legacy. We played the Zoo (Jeff Peel) vs Merfolk (me) matchup and the fastest game he won turn 4 due to me keeping a suspect hand and not playing anything but 3 wastelands and 1 aether vial. The rest of the games went longer and i was winning after stableizing on turns 9-14. Then i watched Christian pilot my deck against
Hinkle who was playing goblins. and again the fastest win even with the turn 1 Lackey connectting was turn 4 (Christian also kept a suspect hand and couldnt daze with no islands out). The decks enchantress, mono white stax, all counter-top variations, both versions of lands, and new horizons are slow decks that can take forever to win. New horizons can be nasty with the turn 2 bitterblossom turn 3 jitte.
"You're the worst person to looose to" annonymous |
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| Date Posted: 8/27/2010
Posted By: Evan Wells
Joined before August '08
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| connecting* i r can not derp right
"You're the worst person to looose to" annonymous |
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| Date Posted: 8/27/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Mike Dale, I call bullshit on your Legacy claims. Besides the 2-3 real "combo" decks that vary in popularity, every deck has at least some kind of plan to go late game. CounterTop variants are the most popular decks in legacy, and they have no way of beating most decks before turn 20. Stax also has nothing to do with the early game. With decks even mainboarding firespout, the format is a hell of a lot slower than it was with Mystical tutor.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Force of Will and Leyline of Sanctity usually prevent turn 1 wins. Most of the decks capable of turn one wins don't os so regularly. Even for Charbelcher decks, by far the fastest deck in the format, wins normally come on turns 2 to 3. I normally chalk up turn one wins to luck. It's something that happens occasionally but not regularly. Playing a deck with Force of Will usually makes first turn losses a non-issue altogether. Against Charbelcher decks I will always mulligan down into a hand with Force of Will and a blue card when I am on the draw, or a Daze when I am on the play. Stax and the blue-white Thopter-Foundry control deck are actually among the slowest decks in any format, and both perform very well in Legacy. The Lands deck is also slow as molasses and does quite well.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 8/28/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Of course, there are decks that can be slow, but that isnt the norm for legacy. I havent seen stax Do anything relevent. And , IF you have force, you can defend yourself. If not, you just have to get lucky. I never said that combo decks always win on turn one, but it happens way to often.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/28/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| And one last thing, the legacy that you guys play is a local metagame. Christian is the only well versed player in legacy that I know of that plays at the hobbyhorse. And yes zack, that counts you. At least it did when I was there. Maybe things have changed, but when I was there, christian built all of your decks, zack. So in effect, christian controled what would be at the tournament. Have any of you guys ever actually played vs a serious combo deck played by a serious player? I bet not. I am not trying to disrespect the horse, but it is a local metagame and cannot be used to judge legacy overall. What is the largest legacy tournament that has been held at the horse in the last year? 8 to 12 people I bet. And out of those decks which were there, I bet christian and martin built over half of them! My point is that the horse is a GREAT store, but tournaments there cannot be used to judge legacy overall. I have played in 3 legacy tournaments which have had over 20 people. And one person didnt build half of those decks. And zack, magic workstation results DO NOT COUNT!!!!! No one who is really good plays workstation. Those players are to busy playing magic online. However, I must say, that the recent SCG 5k legacy results are encouraging.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/28/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I lied, there is more. Look guys, we could argue all summer long about legacy and never get anywhere. But please keep in mind that while I disagree with you about the speed of legacy, I still dont hate the format! But the whole point of this post wasnt to be critical of gods fovorite format, legacy. The point was to talk about the formats of magic. I think that we can all agree that, whether or not we all love legacy, it is a healthy format with a ton of support. Standard is also a healthy format, played all of the time everywhere. But what about the other formats??? I remember a time a few years ago when both block constructed and extended were widely played. Block constructed even had a PTQ season supporting it. My main goal was to talk about magic as a whole, not just gods favorite passtime ( playing legacy ). So my question to all of you is do you like the new extended? I mean, nothing can compare to the splendor and elegance, the pure bliss that is legacy. But do you think that the new extended can be more popular than the old extended? Can anything be done to save or recreate block constructed? And please, no more hatemail! I believe that legacy is the format where all things magical can happen. I understand the greatness of gods favorite format!
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/28/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I have WAY to much of a sarcastic sense of humor.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| I hadn't noticed.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| If you take a look at the top 8 lists from most of the big Legacy events ( 5ks, GP's, etc), you will see that very few of the decks generate turn 1 kills. 1 ANT deck made the top 32 at the MTGO Legacy championships. 1 ANT deck made the top 8 at GP Columbus. 1 Charbelcher deck made the top 8 in the St. Louis 5k. 1 ANT deck made the top 16 at the Seattle 5k. 1 ANT deck made top 8 at the Phildalephia 5k. 1 ANT deck made top 8 at the Atlanta 5k. That only equates to 2 Top 8 finishes, one top 16, and one top 32 for ANT decks in the 5 largest recent tournaments. Charbelcher only had one anemic top 8 finish in the same 5 tournaments. That doesn't equate to a very large percentage of the field. The same five tournaments had 12 Zoo decks and 6 Goblin decks finish in the top 8. Fast combo decks are a legitimate option in Legacy, but the statistics from large events seem to indicate they are not a particularly sucessful choice.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Maybe I am just overreacting. It would seem that the results back you up, christian. I probably am overreacting, but I know that the worst possible thing that can happen to a player in magic is to sit down, shuffle up, lose the die roll, and never get to make a single play in a game. I also was looking up the same tournaments that you were, christian, determined to prove my point! The only thing that I proved, however, was that the results wernt in my favor. But thats ok, Ive been wrong in the past, and I will be wrong in the future. But at least you all know that you will get an honest opinion from me.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| I don't only play legacy at the horse. I quit WoW, so do nothing but play all formats seriously on MWS anymore. And feel free to say something along the lines of "Magic-League is not a good player community." 10+ regulars were in their respective nationals Top 8. So saying "No good players" is a bit much. How many people from your local meta made top 8 at nationals, Mike? Please, start playing MWS and let me know how you dominate every tourney on there. I mean, no good players right?
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| I'm not a huge fan of losing before I take a turn either, but I usually just check it off to luck and go on to the next game. The same decks that can win on turn 1 often fizzle and self destruct, so I figure it probably evens out in the end. The prevelance of Force of Will keeps such decks in check, and it's almost impossible to beat an active Counterbalance with a Storm or Charbelcher deck. Zoo folds to combo (at least before sideboarding) but beats almost everything else. Merfolk are strong vs. combo but basically don't stand a chance against Zoo, although the version with Perish and Submerge does a little better. I guess if Zoo was really worried about the turn 1 kill it could maindeck Mindbreak Trap or Leyline of Sanctity, but it seems like it would be a waste to play something that is a dead card against 80% of the field. The Leyline would probably be decent against mono-red though.
I actually find it kind of interesting that turn 1 kills are much less frequent in Vintage than in Legacy. This seems counterintuitive given the vastly greater amount of mana acceleration in Legacy (moxes, lotus, sol ring, etc). The best combo deck in Legacy is Tezzerator (Time Vault/Voltaic Key). It normally doesn't win before turn four and often plays long tactical control oriented games. I think this is probably due to the strength of blue in Legacy (Ancestral, Time Walk, Mana Drain, etc). Virtually every Vintage Deck (other than Workshop decks) runs blue, so almost every deck plays 4 Force of Will. The more prevelant Force of Will is the less viable quick kills become. Emptying your hand on turn one only to get hit by a Force of Will is virtually suicide.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| And to those who actually have force of will, that is reason to celebrate. However, people who dont have force seem out of luck. It seems strange to me that vintage is actually slower than legacy. I dont actually play vintage, however, so I will have to take your word for it.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| And zack, do you realize that I could make a fake acount on MWS and call myself LSV? Would you know the difference? Probably not, I would bet! However, I do think that me saying that there are no good players on MWS was a bit over the top. However, when I was checking thier site for decklists, I stopped because all of the lists that I found were bad lists made by bad players. Maybe MWS has changed, but it seemed like a bunch of bad players when I checked it out. And as far as my metagame, the players down here are insane. If you dont believe me, check out the ratings down here for the players. I actually do play vs. pro players from time to time here, like andy vick and john pennik. So I dont know how this compares to your wonderous MWS, but I see the players that I play face to face, there isnt no fakeing an account to impress people in real life magic.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Yeah, because as soon as someone comes on with a pro's name, we all assume he is a pro. And the nationals players all mentioned how they play on magic-league in some way. That PV guy? He plays there. To be honest, 75% of the players are a hell of alot better than you, myself or Christain. Please actually play on MWS before you make ignorant claims as to why its terrible.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Also, why would I be impressed by what someone claims to has done? I am impressed by play skill, I don't give a fuck who they claim to be. I'm sure your meta is cool and all, and playing all those "pros" must give you a boner, but just because the people in your meta are good, doesn't mean you are good enough to call an entire community of players bad. But I guess silly me just wouldn't know the differene.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| difference*
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: Evan Wells
Joined before August '08
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| I was actually playing Legacy against a good eternal player. I beleive he has 1870 rating (around that area) in eternal alone whenever i went to Capital City for an fnm i could not play in. He was not a regular he was from out of the area and told me he goes there maybe once every month or two. He was playing add nauseum infernal tutor and our games were about 60-40 in my favor. this deck is a real deck that is a solid combo deck that has ways of taking force of will from your hand and just punishing you for play mistakes. Me and zack take legacy seriously and are going to start going to all big ptq's in areas within driving distance. We read all of the articles and look at all of the results.
"You're the worst person to looose to" annonymous |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Besides the horrible grammar (love you babe), Evan is right. Legacy has become a tad more popular down here post GP Colombus and Evan, myself, Hinkle, Peel have been testing extensive legacy. Evan's favorite is merfolk, Hinkle play gobs and Peel like Zoo. I can and will play any deck besides Doomsday versions of TES, but I tend to lean towards CounterTop variants. The point is that it is a serious legacy enviroment, and we don't just fuck around with the format.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Bring some people this Saturday for Legacy at 2 p.m. at The Horse, hopefully at least 10-12 players would be nice. Maybe someone like Rob Beard would play if someone had a extra deck.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| First off, I think that I covered the remarks that I made about MWS. Look, maybe I am wrong about it. If I am, I am sorry, maybe ( and this is the second time that I am saying this ) I was mistaken? And I never said at all that I could dominate at anything on MWS, ever. But I think that this post has gotten WAY of track. My intentional purpose was to TALK ABOUT MANY DIFFERENT FORMATS!!! And, if you would check back to see what I actually wrote, you would see that all I said about legacy ( other than to claim that it was an extremely sucsessful format with a ton of support ) was to say that in my oppinion, it was to fast of a format. At this point, we all dissagreed. But thats ok, we are all entitled to our opinions. Christian actually convinced me that maybe combo wasnt as dominant as I first thought. As far as magic workstation, fine zack, you are right. I used to look at it as a place to find decklists, until I realized that all of the lists that I found there were horrible. But that was a year ago, and a lot could have changed sense then. I dont play it, so maybe I am wrong? If I am, I am sorry that I was an ass. However, I wasnt the only one who was over the top, so prehaps you should check your attitude, zack. I swear, you would think that I spit in your face with the reaction that I got. But its whatever.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/29/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| I just kind of get annoyed when people say things without basis. S'all good though. Talking about many formats, Extended is probably the fastest atm. Not much of an IRL meta for it until PT Amsterdam, but the tier decks so far are Scapeshift Aggro, Fae, Lark and UGR Junk. Christain has hardcore love for Elementals, but I haven't seen anything from them yet. Fae would be the best, if not kept in check by the Punishing Grove combo that seems to be in almost every deck. Lark however has a pretty great match against Junk, but loses hard to fae. I have had no testing whatsoever with Scapeshift, so no idea on its matchups. Another deck i've seen is a version of ANT running Angel's Grace/Ad Nauseam to draw their deck and smack down a huge Conflagarate.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| I kind of like the ANT deck. I remember seeing a few versions of it in the old Extended.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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 | Date Posted: 8/30/2010
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| If Bridget lets me, I would love to play the Legacy, maybe try and get my rating back above 1600.....
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 8/30/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| When did MWS change to good players? I remember when I looked at the decklists for tournaments, I never recognized any of the players. I continued to see lists like 5 color control from lorwyn with 10 basics and green/black elves without thoughtsieze or vanquisher. From what I saw, I just assumed that it was a bad group of players. I guess that maybe I looked at the wrong tournaments or prehaps maybe the good players hadent arrived yet? Is it still magicleauge.com? I might have to check it out as I used to love magic online, but couldnt afford to keep up with its costs. As far as extended goes, isnt the grove of burnwillows rotating? If I am not mistaken, that is the land which allows the combo. You might laugh at me, but I like doran at the moment. With doran, you have a stable manabase and alot of good spells. Doran, finks, and wilt-leaf liege along with putrid leech and Q pridemage. Throw in cloudthresher for fae control and path and pulse for removal plus durress and thoughtsieze for discard and you seem good. White leyline could provide protection out of the board for the scapeshift deck. Collosus is a great foil for anyone trying to play jund. I dont have a list yet, but I think that with a little tweaking, it could be made to work. I think that extended could be, other than maybe legacy, the format most open to inovation.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 8/31/2010
Posted By: Evan Wells
Joined before August '08
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| I'm playing my version of zoo for the extended tourney while I can still play goyf and grove of the burn willows. I do like your list mike its actually similar to one im making except im playing naya. i am just excited to play more then just type 2 because even though i feel like im becoming a solid type 2 player legacy and extended are extremely fun formats.
"You're the worst person to looose to" annonymous |
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| Date Posted: 8/31/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Yes, grove rotates, I was just talking about extended as it relates to the upcoming PT. And most decklists from M-L are solid, if they aren't, people call them out on it in the comments below. I've seen doran, and it can be pretty strong, but Fae usually walk all over it, even with sideboard inclusions.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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