| Date Posted: 11/10/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
Number of Replies: 39
Last Post: 11/14/2010 |
| | Legacy thoughts | I have to admit, I believe that I was at least partially wrong about my initial legacy thoughts. I had claimed that I thought that legacy was to fast a format. I have recently played in 2 seperate legacy tournaments in the past week, and nothing as nuts as a turn 1 or 2 kill even happened. Plus, as christian previously pointed out, combo isnt even puting up decent numbers at tournaments anymore.
The deck that I played at both of these tournaments was G/W survival. The list that I used was the 1st place nashville SCG deck. I wanted to use zacks list, but I dont have force of will. It seems as though combo isnt as scary as I thought it once was.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/10/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I have a few questions for you, zack. Have you actually tested G/W survival? G/W seems vastly superior to U/G, at least in the mirror. Of course, U/G seems better vs. combo than G/W. I played 3 matches as G/W vs. U/G, and they wernt even close. Swords and pridemage were huge for me, and goyf was unbelieveable.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/10/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| One last thing, I just read an article about legacy bannings. I was wondering what you guys think about it.
http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/-/Fixing_Legacy
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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 | Date Posted: 11/10/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| G/W is strictly better in the mirror. I just cannot justify not playing force, as the G/W matchup is still winnable, partialy due to force. G/W can do nothing proactive against ANT (which I have taken a liking to recently) or Belcher, which is always going to be a portion of the field. They also have a worse Counter Top and Canadian Thresh matchup, as they go off much less often and have no counter back up for their survival. G/W survival seems good, but the last 2 5k's show the opposite result of Nashville. U/G has been preforming much better than G/W.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/10/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Also, I would take MB Trygon Predator over goyf any day.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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 | Date Posted: 11/10/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Not a bad article but from what I have seen and heard recently it seems like combo decks are really not dominating the field so why ban a bunch of cards like Divining Top and such? I do think that Survival decks are becoming a little dominant but this may just be a short term trend I'm not sure. I do like the current Legacy as it is but if say 5 of the top 8 decks in major tournaments are all going to be Survival builds then I think it needs to be banned.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/10/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I recently learned my lesson about jumping to conclusions about legacy. I dont know about banning anything, but what ari lax said about combo holds true. As far as survival goes, I personally dont think that it needs to be banned. Just play this list
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=31842
I dont see any survival deck beating that list. The only change that I would make is to squeeze in 2 more extirpate in the board, then you couldnt lose to survival, unless they nut draw you.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Extirpate is quite good. It's pretty strong vs. combo as well as Vengevines. If you want to ban a card, ban Vengevine. Survival was never a big factor until Vengevine was printed. There were also a lot more Force of Wills in the top 16 of the last two SSG Legacy 5ks than there were Survival of the Fittests.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| But like you said Christian without Force of Will combo decks can go nuts in the format.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Their were some Survival decks out there before I thought but I guess they were not winning tournys until Vengevine. Show and Tell was a card that sold for a buck for a long time until Emrakul got printed.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Another article about Survival here:http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-state-of-legacy-picking-apart-survival/
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Lol, that last article is from Caleb, the guy who originally gave me the deck on ML.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Haha cool. My only fear with Survival decks no matter which type of build rather it be G/U or G/W or whatever is that if the deck is currently winning 65% of its matches that a large percentage of people will start playing those deck builds and another chunk of people will have builds that hate it out. This reminds me a bit of Affinity and we know that Wizards certainly never banned any affinity cards to fix that problem:) Lol
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| I fully expect something to be banned in December, that is why im trying to learn a deck that isn't survival just in case.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Probably a good idea, when you play in Virginia isn't Standard you are playing? Or is it both Legacy and Standard again?
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| I am playing at least 2 days of Standard. The grinders and day 1 of the invitational. If I don't make Day 2, I can play the Legacy Open happening that Sunday, so i'm taking a legacy deck just in case.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Oh I see, you should do well in Standard you just have to find a good deck that you love to pilot.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Too bad standard blows right now.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| It is a bit stale right now unfortunately.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| And Mike, that list doesnt even seem like it has as good of a match as Stax against survival. And that list is much better vs G/W than U/G.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Your probably right, zack, but I think that the MBC list is a good plact to start if you want to beat survival. A ton of removal, plus extirpate, seems like a good way to fend off survival. If I were going to a big legacy tourney and I had to beat survival, I would start with that list.
Christian, I dont think that banning vengevine would be correct. Wizards would just print another vengevine-like creature at some point in the future, and survival would still be there. I personally dont think that survival should be banned, as there are several ways to beat it. Even zack, who has championed U/G survival, stated in his tournament report that he didnt want to play vs. storm.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| ....... one more thing. Christian, I have stolen your esper list for standard and have played it . So far, I have only played one tourney with your list. I went 3-0-1 and tied foe first, winning $10 in store credit. I like your esper list, but it seems to struggle with mana sometimes.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| And that is tied for first, not tied foe first! ( my typing SUCKS!! )
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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 | Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| After reading so much of this stuff about legacy, I am inclined to believe that the state of legacy is perfectly fine. Survival does wreck the tournament scene, but it can be hated out just fine as well. I mean come on people, back before I "stopped" playing Magic, I remember a certain deck called "Jund" that was putting up WAY better results than survival decks. Wizards did nothing about it. They just waited for rotation to fix everything. Now, rotation certainly can't "fix" legacy, but if it comes to that much of a problem, because legacy is such a diverse format with a large range of cards to choose from, there should be TONS of ways to hate this deck out. It just takes some time to find the right 75 to hate out survival and be competitive against the field as well.
Also, on the note of Affinity being as dominant as survival is now, I remember that I ABSOLUTELY LOVED standard when affinity was around. At that time there was THE DECK and the THE DECK TO BEAT THE DECK. That was my favorite time in Magic's history, and I was only a NUB then. You'd think that someone with minimal experience in the game would hate a time period like that, but I sure didn't.
Survival can be hated out.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| In my opinion, I love the balance in a format where there is THE DECK and the ANTI-DECK. I personally think most formats should have this type of balance in order to maintain fun times. What would Magic be if we didn't constantly have decisions to make based on metagames and deckchoices?
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| I am actually going to have to get 2 decks made, as we leave the day after the announcments of bannings. Most likely am going to take ANT as well. A sick Welder/Reanimator deck I have been working with is also a possiblility.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Well Ben I think Legacy is the one format where you don't want one deck (Survival builds) being played by 60% or more of the field with the other 30% or so playing decks just made to beat it and another 10% or less with "rogue" decks if you will. I say this because Legacy is usually lauded as being the most diverse format in magic and to me having the one deck and the other decks just built to hate it out is NOT going to create a diverse format. I don't mind the scenario in Extended or Standard so much but in Legacy so don't want to see the same Survival decks over and over and over and then cards like Extirpate and Pithing Needle or Relic over and over, to me that is not diversity.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Survival isn't really even showing up in rediculously mass numbers. Its just doing really well.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/12/2010
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Yes but since it is doing really well it may show up in bigger numbers. But with Legacy you never know it could just be the "flavor of the week" but we will see Dec. 1st what gets banned if anything.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/12/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Bannings almost never have anything to do with a decks power. Look at mirrodin block, for example. If affinity was SO powerful, wizards would have did a quick banning of the deck, much like they did with several urza block cards. Look at divining top in old extended. It was banned because EVERY single deck in extended played fetches combined with top. Should top even be considered for banning in todays legacy? Is it that powerful? No, but there are several rumors about its possible banning. I tend to see both martin and bens point of view. On a power level, I still thing that ANT is the most powerful deck, and banning survival would do nothing about the true power in legacy. If I had my way, I would ban the following cards
- ad nauseum
- lions eye diamond
- all cards with storm
- any tutor effect below 3 mana that allowed you to search your library for anything other than a basic land
Those bannings would have nothing to do with power. I think that legacy as it is right now, other than possibly lions eye diamond, is a well balanced format. I just hate combo decks that force you to either have the hate or sit there and do nothing while your opponent beats you. Not much fun. Thats why I actually like legacy with survival being dominant. The survival deck is awesome, no doubt. But you can interact with the survival deck without building just to beat survival. If something had to be banned, I would much rather see lions eye diamond gone than survival.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/12/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Lol, I would see your point if ANT actually put up the results. And ANT isn't the only storm deck in legacy, nor is it the fastest. Spanish Inqusition is a deck I have been testing with recently, and can go off turn 1 between 50 and 60% percent of the time, depending on the list. It is not played as much because people don't really understand how the deck works. It is also more fragile than ANT. Here is a link to the home of this deck, where you can see the complete primer and all the variations. Brandon Adams made 2 of the variations on the deck.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18190-[Deck]-Spanish-Inquisition-(B-x-Storm-Combo)
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Survival has long been one of the most popular cards in Legacy. It only recently became abusive with the printing of Vengevine. Since many "non-broken" decks use Survival (i.e Survival Sliver, Bant Survival, and traditional 5 Color Survival) the logical choice for banning would be Vengenvine, which is not played in any other tier 1 or 2 decks.
I personally don't think any bannings are necessary, as metagames almost always adjust to new deck types/ cards. It seems like once a strong new deck type emerges you always have a group of people complaining that card x or card y should be banned, while the better players take advantage of the new meta-game with decks designed to defeat the popular new deck. Bannings should only be considered if the deck has remained dominant for an extended period of time and resisted all efforts to find effective foils for it.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| I also agree with Mike about Lion's Eye Diamond being the most overpowered card in Legacy. I don't think it's quite good enough to require banning, but it's definitley the leading candidate.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I agree with you, christian, about bannings. I dont think that legacy is unbalanced, as there are many different decks and deck types that you can play. My suggestions come from a self interest prespective. I have absolutly NO problem with the survival deck in any of its forms. Survival is a good deck with several lines of play. I dont hate survival because you can actually interact with it. You dont need force to stop it. I simply think that any deck that can regularly " go off " by turn 3 and beat you, regardless of what you do, is a problem. Imagine a legacy without force of will. Combo would rule all tournaments unchallenged. Now imagine legacy today, as it is, only lets say you dont own force of will. That is were my problem is.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| And , I could be wrong about this point, but I believe that the reason that ANT doesnt put up the results is simply that many people dont play it. Half of the people who do play it probably misplay the deck. Ant doesnt seem like a deck that is very forgiving of play mistakes. Imagine playing 6-8 rounds of swiss just to reach a top 8 while piloting ANT. Survival, on the other hand, seems much easier to play correctly. I could be wrong in that assumption, but it seems like a good guess.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Zack, I read some of that post about the SI deck, and it seems sick! I truely hope that SI doesnt catch on, because that would create a legacy format where you either played SI, or you played force. Imagine going to a SCG open a month after everyone realizes just how good SI could be. A 3rd of the room would be on force of will, another 3rd would play SI, while the last 3rd would be the poor players caught in the middle of the " combo vs. force war ". How many of that last 3rd of players do you think would actually play legacy agian. Imagine yourself going to play in that tournament. Lets just say that this open is your first legacy experience. Your first 2 rounds is vs. SI or ANT, and you only get about 5 turns in your first 2 rounds of play! Not a very good experience I would say. This is my personal oppinion, but I think that for legacy to continue to thrive, it needs to have an interactive environment. Thats why I like legacy today, as the survival deck that dominates so much is an interactive deck.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| As stated in the post, people don't play SI simply don't play it because they don't know how it works, or don't want to play it for 8 rounds without mistakes. And I don't believe people aren't playing ANT because of skill, as it is a reletivly forgiving deck. SI or Doomsday Storm however are the hardest two decks to play in legacy. Its actually better to learn ANT first, as it has the basic storm principals but with a more consistant and easier to play shell. Another reason why less people play SI is because Duress and Thoughtseize are much better vs you than ANT.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| "simply don't play it" shouldnt be there in the first sentence.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/14/2010
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I would hate to be the one trying to pilot SI. My brain would explode all over the table.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/14/2010
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| Its not rediculously hard after you play with the deck for a bit.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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