 | Date Posted: 11/10/2009
Posted By: Jeremy Banks
Member Since: 5/3/2008
Number of Replies: 92
Last Post: 11/24/2009 |
| | Upcoming Highlander Thoughts | I know Martin has said that we would just use the current list for banned cards, but I thought I would rekindle the discussion. At the time of writing this, we have 10 days until the tourney. Do we want to do a poll or at least get the issue of life-condition cards understood? I believe the common consensus is that you start EDH with 20 more life than in an actual match of Magic. Since all cards in Magic are printed(for the most part)for one-on-one play as far as life count goes, this should be the rule. I know they changed/created cards to say opponents instead of opponent to fit multi-player conditions,but when 2 headed giant became legit, they defined seperate rules for life payments on cards. Thoughts?
“Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.” - Ratadrabik of Urborg |
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 | Date Posted: 11/10/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| There is a website where they talk about the "official rules" they follow, #7 in particular addresses the life total issue:
Rules
Where would any good game be without a solid set of standard rules? Since this is a casual format, your group may have different ideas about cards that are able to be played. There are "Official Rules" that we follow.
1) Each play must choose a Legendary Creature to use as their 'General'. - No other player may use a declared general in their deck. If there is one in a deck, that player must remove the card and replace it with any card that is not already banned. While we understand that this can be inconvienient we need to further rule that a card removed this way cannot be replaced with a 'hoser card' or a card that would target any one specific General.
2) A General's mana cost determines what colored mana symbols may appear on cards in the deck. If a colored mana symbol is not present in the General's mana cost, the deck may not contain any cards using that mana symbol. As an example, Thelon of Havenwood cannot be a General because her Activated ability is BG and her casting cost is GG.
3) Additionally, Generals with the following abilities cost {2} additional colorless mana to use their abilities: Morph, Ninjitsu & Suspend for each time they are played from the RFG Zone. As an example, Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni would cost 3BB the first time played from the RFG Zone and 5BB the second time, etc.
4) No deck may generate mana outside its colors; anything which would generate mana of an illegal colour generates colorless mana instead.
5) Other than basic lands, no two cards in the deck may have the same name. An EDH deck must contain exactly 100 cards, including the General.
6) Wish cards and Ring Of Ma’Ruf may only be used to retrieve cards that began the game in the controller’s deck OR that player’s General.
7) Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant flips when its controller’s life total is 60 or higher. Divinity of Pride gets +4/+4 when the player's life total is 50 or higher.
8) Generals are announced and removed from the game before shuffling at the start of the game. If a General would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner may remove it from the game instead. (This is a replacement effect.. the creature never goes to the graveyard and will not trigger abilities on going to the graveyard). While a General is removed from the game, it may be played. As an additional cost to play your General this way, you must pay {2} for each previous time you have played it this way.
9) The first time a player takes a paris mulligan, they draw 7 cards (instead of 6). The second mulligan is to 6, and so forth.
10) Players begin the game with 40 life. If a player suffers 21 points of combat damage from a single General, they lose. This is an additional state based effect, similar to poison counters, but separate and specific to each General. This damage cannot be healed or undone, even if the creature is removed from play temporarily. Damage done by a creature under someone else's control is still counted towards the 21 point limit for that creature and defender.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/10/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Oh and they did list a banned list which is the official one I just didn't copy that, but it looks like they just add 20 life to any cards that have life total conditions on them right? Like Test of Endurance would require 70 life to win if I am reading it correctly?
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/10/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Now that I look at it I guess they just double the cards required life total, Divinity of Pride is only 25 to trigger its +4/+4 and Rune Tail is only 30 to flip it so they just double it which makes Test of Endurance 100 life I guess?
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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 | Date Posted: 11/10/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Also, not that I would be there, but I might.....
Only one of each general???????
And thoughts on the "sideboard?"
(Sideboarding occurs after generals are "announced" but before the game starts) - tournament play only.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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 | Date Posted: 11/10/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| Martin, can we get the address of that website?
Pwn'd. |
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| Doubling the life requirements for trigered abilities makes sense. I am perfectly happy with the 'official' banned list.
As the legend ability doesn't apply to generals, I don't see why a one of each general requirement is necessary. That rule seems designed simply to add variety to casual multiplayer games.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Sure Ben I went to:http://edh.artbymouse.com/Highlander-Rules.php
If you do a search for EDH rules life total it pulls up several websites that have their own in-house rules including the life total thing, another website just added 10 to each cards required life total but I thought that was kind of dumb for cards like Rune-Tail since it would make it 40 instead of 30 but you still start at 40 life in EDH so I thought that was dumb. I just strongly believe you need to adjust the life total of cards that assume a player starts at only 20 life when you play a format that starts players at 40 life instead and I realize it is a Highlander format but you can still use every Tutor card you want which makes finding cards like Rune-Tail way too easy in my opinion.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/11/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Oh and for this upcoming EDH one game is the match not best 2 out of 3 like we tried last time.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| The matches were effectively one game anyway, as very few people actually completed a second game within the alloted time limit, and virtually no one finished three games.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Martin, I just watched all of the original Prisoner. Pretty good till the last two episodes. "I am not a number. I am a free man."
"True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read." - Pliny the Elder |
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| Date Posted: 11/12/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| Why don't we go with this website, you know, the first one that comes up from a google search?
http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/12/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| The problem with EDH tournaments is that everyone seems to have a different set of rules that they find online, and therefore go by, and build their decks accordingly. Listing only some of the rules doesn't accomplish anything when we have about 30 or 40 rules that nobody knows about because they weren't posted on this site. For instance, that website I posted says the legend rule DOES APPLY to generals. However, wherever you guys are getting your rules says that it doesn't. That is the whole problem. Find a set of rules, and stick with them!
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/12/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| And maybe, just maybe, we won't have that bullshit that happened last time with me choosing my general.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/12/2009
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I just figured that i would give my opinion, and hopefully expand upon what ben has said. First, i agree with ben that the website that he listed is the one that should be used. But, having said that, there are some things that we should remember. One thing is that EDH wasnt made for competitive one-on-one play! The websites that list EDH rules dont have tournament play between two individuals in mind! The banned list and life total rules reflect this! If there are 8 people at your table you just might need 40 life to stay alive and have a chance when multiple people attack you. If one-on-one play were the focus there would be no need for the 40-life rule. Same thing with the banned list. Kokusho wouldnt be a problem in one-on-one play. With 8 people playing, however, sending him to the graveyard repeatedly creates a huge life swing that is just rediculous! Decks with crucible/wasteland/stripmine that can destroy infinate land arent a problem with multiple people at the table. These are just a few examples of the multiplayer mindset of the rules! Im not suggesting any rules changes, hell i dont even know what rules we are using anymore! I just think that we need to find a list of rules that work for the horse and stick with them! I know that i would be pissed if i actually built a deck for EDH ( like ben did ) and have to change that deck on tournament day because of an obscure rule that I didnt know about! Just food for thought!
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I guess the problem is that EDH is just a casual format so there will not be a DCI set of concrete rules to go by, I do think it is a fun format but getting everyone to agree on some set rules seems difficult. I am all for writing out a list of rules just for The Horse but we really need a majority of people to agree on them, I for one am vehemently opposed to allowing cards like Rune-Tail to have the flip effect as stated at 30 life when the format starts at 40 life but if everyone else says no just leave the life thing exactly as the card states then that's fine by me.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Oh and yep Tony the original Prisoner was great until the very last episode for me, but McGoohan had only wanted to do a 6 episode series but was pressured by the main studio producer to flesh it out to a full season of I believe 16 episodes and he had left the series to film Ice Station Zebra and then came back and still had to write the last two episodes by himself on a time limit so that may have explained the abstract weirdness especially of the last episode. However I still liked McGoohan's final episode idea better than his co-writer's idea from earlier in the series of just having the midget butler guy be #1 in the final episode as that would have been really lame!
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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 | Date Posted: 11/13/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| Why don't we just make our own rules using the ones from these websites, such as all rules applying to Generals and Banned List. I have no problem is someone uses Kokusho as a general, but giving all decks the ability to play Crucible/Strip Mine/Wasteland is reGODDAMNdonkulus! |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2009
Posted By: Jeremy Banks
Member Since: 5/3/2008
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| The life thing is a must on the starting with more of it and adjusting the life counts proportionately on cards. I do think Crucible should be banned. I could care less about Kokusho as a general. I would like to see Pull From Eternity banned as well. They ban the guy that puts the exiled card back in the library, but not the card that puts it in the g-yard?? Crazy to me. Just my quick thoughts.
“Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.” - Ratadrabik of Urborg |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I also favor the banning of Crucible.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| This may be a dumb question, but if it is put into the graveyard (via pull from eternity) can't you just choose to remove it from the game as a replacement effect?
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/13/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I always thought it was your choice to remove it from the game, maybe I'm wrong??
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Hinder is another decent choice for banning.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/14/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| but then how can you hinder / tunnel vision?
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/15/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| If we want, as Pennydude suggested, We can keep our own "house rules" for EDH and compile them here. I could keep them listed under tournament Info like other formats. But we would need to do some brainstorming and get some concensus. Then we would also have to get the word out to people who would be planning on paying the EDH.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/15/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I will add Crucible of Worlds to our "house rules", it might be ok for multiplayer but when you are playing one on one that card can make the game not fun at all for someone and this format is supposed to be fun above all else. Also the life thing will be doubled for cards like Rune-Tail, I know a few people don't like this but I will make it a "house rule" for The Horse as well.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/15/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| So.... in answering my question.... Do you want to compile a list for "Hobby Horse Specific" that we can post here?
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/15/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Yes that is fine, the only card I really wanted to add was Crucible unless someone else can think of a card that is too "broken" for the format.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/15/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Which website list should I use as the starting point?
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/15/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| The one we used the last few times is fine as long as we add Crucible to the banned list and the life total thing is doubled.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/15/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| k, I'll get on it.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/15/2009
Posted By: Penny Dude
Member Since: 5/1/2008
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| If we ban Hinder, wouldn't we have to ban all cards that put stuff on the bottom of the library like Oblation? |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I really don't have any problem with hinder, from what I have seen a EDH deck can win without the general anyway but with Crucible and Strip Mine in a one on one match it just means the person without the Crucible in play won't get to play ANYTHING in their deck not just their general.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I say we ban every card ever printed. That should clear up the confusion. Yes, even YOU, Basic Island!
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| That list would be to long Ben and I refuse to type it up to include on the EDH page.
The EDH "Rules" page is up http://midmagic.com/EDH.aspx
Look at it, read it, tell me if it needs anything added or removed. I added crucible and explained the life thing. Additionally there are a handful of cars that seem specific to multiplayer games so maybe we should remove them from the banned list.
Upheaval
Sway the Stars
Kokusho
maybe others. Let me know.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Also the rules I copied state that as of 9/10/09 Generals ARE subject to the legend Rule. so we can discuss that also.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I agree that Generals should be subject to the legend rule. It makes no sense for 2 Teferi to be in play at the same time.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| If the rules state that now then that should be the rule, it does make sense and I suppose if both generals hit play then they are removed from game and each cost 2 colorless more to play right?
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I would like to think that is how it would be.
Pwn'd. |
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| If the legend rule applies to generals then it is probably necessary to reserve generals. Mirror matches between generals would be pretty awkward.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| If you guys want to reserve them we can, I just figured if someone played the mirror match it wouldn't come down to the general but the rest of the deck but if you guys want to... for a fun casual format this seems really hard to get EVERYONE to agree on the rules.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| I guess it's not a huge deal. It just means the two generals spend the whole game killing themselves.
Nice Super Troopers quoute by the way.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| People who don't use this website might be upset if they show up to play and learn that the house rules neuter their deck, however.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/16/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| well, they will typically only know about the tourney via word of mouth and/or this website, so if we try to let everyone know that way. I should see a couple players tommorow night at mecca. I will let them know.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/17/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Yep it would be good to let as many people know the "house" rules ahead of time, the Super Troopers quote is in honor of a announced sequel to that movie, can't wait for it!
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/17/2009
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| It seems like we kicked off something here, with the rules changes. But I would advise caution with regard to quickly banning cards. The reason is that it is easy to assume that cards are " broken " whan in fact they are just very good! For example, crucible of worlds. I think that we all agree that if you get crucible on-line with wasteland or stripmine then you have a big advantage. But is the combo really that good? Let me explain. Last time EDH was played at the horse, I ran a green,white,black Doran the seige tower deck. I had crucible, wasteland, stripmine as a part of my deck. I also played both vampric and demonic tutors. I also had the cycling lands from onslaught with eternal witness, regrowth, and Life from the loam. I had the enlightened tutor as well. You see, I greatly valued the ability to endlessly destroy land! Seems kind of good. Do you know how many lands that I destroyed on that day? I dont remember the exact number, but it wasnt that many. I played all 5 rounds ( at least 12 games ) and the whole combo wasnt particularly that great! Does this mean that crucible shouldnt be banned? I dont know, Im not the smartest in the room so I dont want to make that detirmination! Lets consider another card that in my opinion is the best general, Zur the enchanter. This guy is nuts! At 4 mana, he allows you to play 3 colors and gives you a tutor with legs ( or wings ) that can allow you to do crazy things such as make all of your enchantments untargetable, draw you endless cards ( necropotence ). This allows you to counter endless spells ( forbid ) and do other insane things! BUT IS IT BAN WORTHY? That is a serious question. When i played zack we drew after 2 long games. Game one he pretymuch set up the situation that i described above. Game over. Game 2 i was able to attack his hand with some timely discard! He couldnt recover and i won easily. We didnt have time to finish game 3, but i felt as though i had a chance! My point is that things allways seem worse before you go through them. I dont often admit when i am wrong, as im not wrong about this game often, but i think that i MAY have been wrong about previously calling for the banning of zur! Maybe i was right? The point is that i know this game fairly well and im not comfotable making the banhammer decisions, are you? One last point that i want to make is that i think that it is wrong to reserve generals! I mean, really, what if i want to play teysa really badly? I dont think that i should be told no because i dont log in one day and miss the oportunity to declare my general! Not every hobbyhorse patron visits this site daily, those who dont would be at a disadvantage when picking their generals, and thats not fair. Well, these are my thoughts, do with them as you will.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| I really have no problem with Crucible of Worlds. If players don't like losing to it they can play Naturalize, Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing, Seal of Primordium, Shatter, Ancient Grudge, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Krosan Grip, Pithin Needle (naming Strip Mine or Wasteland), Blood Moon, etc. There are a huge variety of options for combating Crucible.
On most EDH forums Zur is usually ranked as the fourth of fifth best general. He hardly seems broken enough to consider banning. Even Teferri seems at least as good. Sharuum the Hegemon seems to be one of the more broken generals, due to several potential infinite combos.
It is probably unnecessary to reserve generals, even with the legend rule now applying to generals. It is more fun if everyone just plays the general that they like.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Crucible in a multiplayer player format is fine but when you play a one on one match and it's one game is the match and you lose because you can't play ANYTHING because your opponent got a Crucible on turn 3 with Strip Mine and every turn they wipe out your land until you have none then how fun is it? I know that will not happen every game but the banned list that is listed on the EDH website is for a MULTIPLAYER format not one on one which means cards like Kokusho probably do not need banned but cards like Crucible do, just my opinion but I played I believe Brandon or somebody a while back in EDH and they got the Crucible Strip Mine going turn three or four and I just sat there for 15-20 minutes until they killed me and that is just not fun, if I spend hours building a deck I don't want a card like Crucible stopping me from playing the game. Just my thoughts on it and this will probably be the last time for a LONG time before we play EDH again at The Horse as I am tired of not having a set of rules that everyone agrees on.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I really don't want to reserve generals either mainly because someone who doesn't visit the site may show up to play without any idea that we reserved generals and show up with a general someone else is playing and I don't want to tell the person you have to change generals because I know these decks take time to build and some decks are built around the general specifically.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| OK, seriously. I know the Strip Mine/Crucible thing is stupid good in a 1 on 1 format. But does anybody ever really put any thought into what should be banned, or do they just think "OH MY GAWD! THAT COMBO WRECKS PEOPLE, IT SHOULD BE BANNED!"
I agree with Christian on the Crucible thing. There are about six-hundred bajillion ways to deal with it in the history of Magic.
So, since nobody tends to think about it, I will.
CRUCIBLE OF WORLDS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!
THE PROBLEM IS STRIP MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can't honestly tell me that Wasteland/Crucible is even close to worth a crap. Sure it kinda sucks if you're running a 5 color deck that relies on non-basics, but not every deck does.
There is a reason that Legacy and Vintage formats have Strip Mine banned, and not Crucible of Worlds. They realize that having 4 Strip Mine and 4 Crucible of Worlds in the same deck could be extremely problematic and a format-warping combo.
However, they also realized that the whole reason that it's problematic is because Strip Mine can hit any land. Wasteland isn't bad at all. I don't have a problem with Wasteland/Crucible, especially when you don't HAVE TO HAVE NON-BASICS TO PLAY THIS FORMAT!
Come on people. Seriously. Wake the fuck up.
I say put the ban hammer on Strip Mine, much like it is banned in pretty much every format it is legal in. Don't ban the card that has other uses besides the combo with Strip Mine.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I agree with Mike. Just because someone has a bad experience with a card doesn't necessarily mean it should be banned. Off the top of my head there are a hand full of requirements that should be evaluated.
How prevelant is the Combo? This should be played in every deck. It takes 3 non-color specific cards. (Other "Staples" include Maze of Ith, Sol Ring, Mishra's Factory, Duplicant, and Soldevi Simulacrum)
How devestating is the Combo / How big is the Impact? Very much early game, not so bad mid to late game.
How easy is the combo to get? It used to be very easy with Gifts, but that has been banned itself. The probability of getting it on its own is very low. With tutors, you are spending turns to find the pieces, but in the long game of EDH the "wasted" turns probably don't matter.
How easy is the combo to deal with? Like Christian mentioned, any good deck should be able to handle a multitude of threats. (Which mean you may need to play more to see what those threats are) However, the probabilities are still low. If i have 5 artifact specific removals, I still have to have one when I need it, and then hope you don't have an Acadamy Ruins, or a Recall, or an Eternal Witness (All staples if you are playing those colors by the way) So now I have to deal with it again. Graveyard hate would be the best way to go, but that is often overlooked.
If a card gets played and it has a big enough impact where the card itself, or the combo it generates is an auto-win, then I think it should be banned. Is crucible the case? If it was a three game match, I would say no. But in a one game, Even if your opponent is playing 1 crucible, 1 strip mine, 96 mountains and a Banefire. If they rock out that third turn strip and you haven't played anything yet, do you think you stand much of a chance?
I played a three man a while back, where the winner kept me locked down with the crucible strip mine, and then pretty much played a 1v1 until the other guy was dead. Crucible does suck in multiplayer too.
Ultimately Martin, the decision should be yours. Like you have said, EDH is typically a Fun / Multiplayer game. We are making it different for tournaments. So I think the rulings do need to change some. I do however think your decision should be based upon gameplay and fairness and not on personal experience / feelings.
Also, as far as reserving the General, I don't care, I only bring it up because that is/was the "Rule" But like I said some rules should change for tournament play.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| And honestly, I don't give two shits whether or not it makes the games unfun. Over half of the games I win seem to be extremely unfun for my opponent. But I don't see the cards I play getting banned. Force of Will is a very unfun card. But it's not banned. Teferi is a very unfun card. It's not banned. Zur is a very unfun card. It's not banned. Hell, counterspell is a very unfun card. It's not banned. Kira Great Glass Spinner is a very unfun card. It's not banned. Wrath of God is a very unfun card. It's not banned. If we let one person complain and complain and complain and complain and complain about one combo that they hate because they didn't have fun playing the game, then that leaves it open for the next person to complain and complain and complain and complain about a combo they saw that was extremely unfun for them. Who cares? You play this game knowing full well the possibilities of what could happen if you were to come across one of those events. Zack complained and complained and complained and complained about how Burrenton Forge-Tender wrecked his chances at States when he was playing a Mono-Red deck. It sure as hell was extremely unfun for him to play against Forge-Tender in 4 out of the 8 matches that day, but did Forge-Tender get the ban hammer? Fuck no. Because you have to realize that it is something that must be taken into consideration when building a deck.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I lost my games against Christian all due to the fact that Kira Great Glass Spinner is a beast, in the last EDH tournament. My deck literally had about a 10% chance of winning against his. I hated it. But Kira Great Glass Spinner is a great choice for general, and Christian shouldn't be punished because he knew that beforehand.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| While we are on the topic of banning, we should ban mulligans, playing lands, casting spells, and winning the game. These bannings would make the game fun.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Like you said Ben, Cards get banned because they unbalance the game. the Max 4 of a specifc cards was instituted to balance the game of 20 Black Lotus' / 40 Ancestral Recall. Then cards were restricted because of their power level being too abusive.
Is crucible this level? I don't know. I play more EDH here in Springfield now, so my decks combat it. If you don't have the same experience playing, it may be a little rougher on you. (Of course the games I play are free, and if Crucible Lock hits, I can concede and then we can just start all over.)
But I stick to my guns on "It sucks to lose to a shitty deck because of one card"
Also I think Strip Mine is utility. You should always play it and it doesn't warrant a ban on its own. Only with Crucible is it broken, and Crucible is good for little else. (Unless you are going to try some kind of 100 card life from the loam dredge... good luck with that!)
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| The thing with this format is that it is VINTAGE you are playing not Legacy so banning things like Strip Mine or all the good tutor effects will not fly I realize that but I don't think Strip Mine used once in a game is all that big of a deal but with Crucible in play using it every turn when you are playing a one on one match and when one single game is the match is just dumb. Another problem with this format is when a question arises during play that the website we are going off of for rules doesn't answer the rules question specifically where do you then look for the answer? Some other website? Hell you look at different sites they all have some different rules and this leads me to believe that maybe this format is better suited for "kitchen table" magic rather than a tournament format where you have to pay entry fee and there are prizes on the line. I'm willing to try it again but after this time I will not be scheduling another EDH for a long time at the Horse.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Well, as far as questions are concerned, we should probably try to flesh them out if there are examples.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Seems like one always just pops up and nobody knows exactly what the answer is but if anyone has specific questions ask them here so we can try to iron things out beforehand.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Strip Mine is not banned in Vintage, by the way. It is only restricted.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| Good call, Christian. I is not edumacated.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Wow! The webmaster agrees with me! I think that hell just froze over! LOL! Something that I want to say, however, is that the conversation on this topic is a GOOD THING! Its not like we are arguing or fighting, we are just all giving our points of view. Matt is right in the long run, martin, the decision is yours. I believe that no matter what decision you make, you will have our support. Of course, you will also have complaints, because you will NEVER be able to please everyone! My whole point by entering this debate was to try to encourage carefull thought about banhammer decisions. Remember the last time that i came on here talking about EDH? I wanted to ban Zur and necropotence along with crucible! The reason was because these were my first thoughts about powerful cards and I was in the HOLY CRAP WE GOT TO BAN EVERYTHING mindset. Lets look at necropotence, for instance, to see what im talking about. Necropotence is WAY more powerful than crucible and stripmine! Crucible is nothing to necropotence, yet nobody is talking about banning it!? Why? Its because crucible is the hype card and nobody is thinking about the draw 7 cards per turn superbadass enchantment known as necropotence! Now im not saying that we should ban necro, but it should be considered way before crucible!!! The point is that we should avoid knee-jerk reactions and put some careful thought into whether or not we should ban cards! The major thing that im saying, and this point is for you martin, is that we are not aginst you. Please dont take this discusion as a bad thing, but rather instead, take it as something that needs to occur to create our own format! Because I dont think that ANY of us, on our own, is qualified to make that decision! Either way, martin, you have my full support ( and probably dozens of my complaints ) as you make these decisions!
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I appreciate the kind words Mike and I'm not getting upset over anything here, I definately don't want to go overboard with banning cards in EDH and Crucible was really the only card I had in mind but I'm sure there are other cards out there like Necropotence which could be banned. I just don't like the idea of a one game match where someone has a 1 in a 1000 draw of swamp/dark ritual/crucible/strip mine in their opening hand because if they did it probably wouldn't matter what the other player had in their hand (other than Daze/Force of Will,Etc.) the game would be over for them because they would never get mana to cast their general,Necropotence or much of anything else except maybe a one-drop something. Believe me when I say after last time I wanted to ban all the good tutors and many other cards and turn it into Legacy EDH but this is a Vintage format make no mistake about that, I know it doesn't allow power nine cards but even Sharazad is playable in this format. There is even a joke I saw online somewhere, "What is the difference between EDH and Vintage?...40 cards! I hope we get a good crowd for EDH and then we can have a discussion afterwards again to see if any other card is so stupidly broken that it needs to be banned or maybe a card is on the list that could be unbanned too.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/18/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| The thing with Crucible also that sets it apart from cards like Necropotence is that it is not color specific, which means that every single EDH deck SHOULD run Crucible/Strip Mine/Wasteland just because it can and just because it is a cheap and easy way to lock out your opponent from playing much of anything so to me if every single deck in the EDH field should be running it isn't that something along the lines of Affinity and didn't some things get banned there? Now when there are 4 or 5 people playing then sure maybe 1 person can lock down one other person but the other guys can team up on the guy with Crucible in play so no big deal but one on one I could have the crappiest deck and be playing someone like Ben with a awesome deck and I roll out the Crucible and Strip Mine and just get lucky and I win the game which means I win the match.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| I have personally found Mind Twist to be the single most powerful card in the format. The majority of games I have played have been decided by Mind Twist, usually powered by Mana Drain.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Once again though not EVERY deck will be playing Mind Twist right? As I recall last EDH both Jeremy B. and Tony K. ran Teferri as their general which means no Mind Twist and I think they both did very well, Jeremy may have won I don't remember?
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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 | Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Zack Strait
Member Since: 4/9/2008
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| According to this thread, CAPS LOCK is the cruise control of cool.
"The shit look like ya hand when you be doin a shadow puppet for a duck n shit nahmean. Shit be lookin like it jus caught a pop fly in center field n whatever whatever nahmean." re: Ghostface Killa on lil' kim's vagina. |
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| Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| AGREED.
Pwn'd. |
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 | Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Ian Gephart
Member Since: 11/21/2008
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| I might get dragged to this tourney
So my question is are we going to register generals or what?
You put what,where?-Alyx Vance |
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| Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| No we are not going to register generals.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| The blue decks ran Amnesia instead of Mind Twist, which does the same thing.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| So Amnesia is just as bad as Mind Twist? Maybe but I have won games when I got Twisted but Crucible lockdown can be a bit more difficult. The only card I will ban this time is Crucible.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| OF COURSE, CAPS LOCK IS COOL!!! WITHOUT IT I WOULD DIE!!! I NEED MY CAPSLOCK!!!!!!! MUST HAVE IT MUST BE COOL!!!!!! I MIGHT JUST COME ON HERE AND TYPE RANDOM STUFF, JUST SO I CAN USE MY CAPS LOCK!!!!!! GOT TO HAVE IT, NEED IT, WANT IT!!!!
On to serious STUFF , from WHAT i have read, the only change is that CRUCIBLE is banned. I know for a TiMe wE wErE talking AbOuT MaKiNg generals subject To tHe LeGeNdArY PeRmAnEnT rUlE. What is the FiNaL VeRdIcT oN ThAt? AnD OnE ThInG ThAt We NeVeR talked about is starting LiFe. ArE We StAyInG At 40? WhAt Do YoU GuYs ThInK AbOuT ThAt? I personally cant find a good reason to not start at 20, but im far from a genious, what do you guys think? It SeEmS LiKe StArTiNg At 40 just helps the combo decks and hurts the aggro decks! I mean can you even play red effectively? I bet control decks LoVe StArTiNg At 40 LiFe!
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| I would just like to point out that I have seen people win games when their opponent has a resolved Crucible on board. I have never seen anyone come back from Amnesia or Mind Twist of 5 or greater. Just food for thought.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I Mind Twisted Jeremy Banks for 4 or 5 last time and he came back and won the game just fine, it may be because he was playing blue and drew a bunch of extra cards several turns after the Twist but he beat me just the same. What is really the big deal about banning Crucible? Does it really mean people can't build a deck? Is every deck based around Crucible somehow?
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/19/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| And yes Mike D. if you look at the home page of this website it has a link to the official highlander website we are going off of including the legendary general rule which changed as of 9-10-09 to say they kill each other, and as far as the life total goes 40 is fine otherwise it makes the 21 points of general damage kind of pointless and yes the 40 life probably favors the combo decks.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Amnesia rocks.
"True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read." - Pliny the Elder |
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| You are an evil man, my Amnesia casting friend.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: Jeremy Banks
Member Since: 5/3/2008
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| This has gotten a tad bit out of hand, not the intention I had by starting this "beast". This whole conversation began back when they unbanned Crucible from the "unofficial" format. It was deemed by players that played the hell out of EDH and started the website devoted towards the format to be to powerful initially for EDH in a multiplayer scenario. They recended that idea and allowed it in multiplayer. The difference between every card comparison to Crucible is painfully simple. Every deck is going to have Crucible no matter what colors you choose. Its that good!!! In a 1 game scenario, it blows you out if it hits too many times to not be banned one on one. The fact that it is colorless, goes in every deck and is DOMINANT when it hits is grounds for banning. Just ban it and we move on with the rules that are set already. We don't have to move mountains to make a small change to a format.
I am not sure about everyone else's credentials in how many games\hours of EDH you guys have played, but I have to be up there in the top. Having played several hundred hours of EDH, mostly one on one, I feel confidant in my opinion that one one one, it needs banned.
Everything else needs to stay the same for now. This format is fun and making it every 1.5 months or so is awesome.
Baby steps.... baby steps. No need for us to jump out the window and redesign the format.
Aside..... Christian beat me at the end of that tournament, although I honestly can't recall who got first.
“Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.” - Ratadrabik of Urborg |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| You still got 1st Jeremy B. due to tiebreakers I checked. And yes I agree with you it's just too powerful in a one on one match especially when this time we are doing one game is a match instead two outta 3 because if I lost say 2 outta 4 matches due to dumb luck of two players getting Crucible/Strip Mine or Wasteland out on me early game I would be pissed.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: Ben Warren
Member Since: 3/18/2008
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| Maybe instead of trying 1 on 1 matches, you should play a Multiplayer tournament. This format wasn't meant for 1 on 1, and the website that I posted has options for prize payouts, etc., for something like an 8-man multiplayer game. Just my thoughts.
This format wasn't meant for 1 on 1.
It was meant for multiplayer.
Let me reiterate:
This format wasn't meant for 1 on 1.
It was meant for multiplayer.
One more time:
This format wasn't meant for 1 on 1.
It was meant for multiplayer.
Got it yet? Just in case you don't:
This format wasn't meant for 1 on 1.
It was meant for multiplayer.
Pwn'd. |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
|
| Problem is with multiplayer would it be 4 random people at each table with a free for all type of thing? Or is it more of "attack zones" or what? I do agree with you Ben that we are trying to make a multiplayer format into a one on one type of thing and it does bring up some issues especially with cards on the banned list. There are quite a few cards such as Kokusho and Limited Resources that are banned in the multiplayer format for I think obvious reasons but one on one cards like those really don't need to be banned in my opinion. I just am not wild about a free for all multiplayer type of thing as people can team up on better players or decks and that's not right for that player. I still want to give it another shot as one on one play and see how it goes but sometimes it feels like I am trying to pound a square peg in a round hole. Hee that sounds so dirty!
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| Jeremy, one question. What do you mean by out of hand? All that this has been is a healthy discusion about a change to a format. I dont believe that anyone has gotten out of hand, although I could be wrong. I apologize if anyone thought that I went overboard, that was not my intention. Hell, you all know what im like when im going overboard, I really tried to avoid that this time. However, we need to talk about this, so that we can put our heads together and use the best ideas as we move forward with this. Your explination as to why crucible should be banned actually make some sense. Not saying that i agree with you, but its good to give martin plenty of input as he makes these decisions. Thats all that I ever wanted to do with this post!
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I think he meant the post was getting a lot of responses not that anyone was getting obnoxious or anything. And if you read what I said in my earlier post I said basically exactly what Jeremy said but it is good to get someone's input who has played the format one on one a lot more than most of us.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Really Martin... Really...
If you read what I said early it is pretty much exactly what you said Jeremy said. Jeez. I think reiterization is the key here though. As Ben points out.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| Really Matt...Really....
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/20/2009
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I figured that was what jeremy was saying, because he has always been fair to me. His input is vital to our talk, and im glad that he spoke up. However, you cant blame me for being both cautious and defensive, considering my history on this site and my interactions with the people on here. Alot of what happened was my fault, but alot wasnt, and it leaves me cautious when posting! But I am trying very hard to eliminate the static from my end, and I think that my current posts reflect this. I just want my voice to count, and the only way that it does, is on here.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| I would prefer more debate over Crucible of Worlds please. I don't really care much one way or the other, but I am deriving vicarious pleasure listening to people argue about it.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/21/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| I could cup your balls while you read these Christian. If that helps.
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| It might, but it probably wouldn't be the same. Could you debate the merits of Crucible of Worlds while you do so?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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| Date Posted: 11/21/2009
Posted By: Matthew Ratz
Member Since: 2/29/2008
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| So let me get this straight.... all this conversation about EDH with the second polling thread and no one even played in it? Sweet!
Playing to Win is Playing for Fun - Matthew Ratz |
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| Date Posted: 11/21/2009
Posted By: Martin Stanley
Member Since: 2/29/2008
|
| We had 10 people playing, and I think the only one who almost had a opinion on the Crucible discussion was Christian,lol. Out of everybody there I really don't think anybody really gave a poop about Crucible being banned.
Terry Hoitz: I'm like a peacock, you gotta let me fly! |
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| Date Posted: 11/21/2009
Posted By: The Mike Dale
Member Since: 5/31/2009
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| I wanted to be there, but couldnt. Ive been absent the past 2 weeks for the same reason. And my deck really could have used crucible, but would have been ok without it.
" We are 5 days away from fundamentaly transforming the united states of america " - Barrack Obama |
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| Date Posted: 11/24/2009
Posted By: Jeremy Banks
Member Since: 5/3/2008
|
| Not gonna lie, I got shit-faced drunk on Friday and playing EDH got moved to the back of my mind Saturday. The out of hand was definately not meant towards anyone person or individual thought, just the whole thing. There was confusion on the life printing on cards and discussion of things we could change for house rules,which I believe the first "house rule" was to make it a 1 on 1 match. This in and of itself brought forth talk of making changes to the lists to fit our needs\wants. Again, minor changes in my opinion. Contrary to competitive beliefs, you can play "fun" versions of MTG like EDH and Cube drafting and tweak lists without having some higher power do it for you. Before I start a shit storm about fun vs. competitive in any fashion, I am competitve and always try to win whether it is under the DCI rating or casual umbrella.
“Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.” - Ratadrabik of Urborg |
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